Miles Davis: The Bootleg Series Vol. 3

[Steve Reynolds]

Glad to see this discussion

Of course mileage may vary

And I know most or many of these musicians don't often even play near me and I'm near NYC

I will say this

What some of them DO play might surprise people

Even my wife knows when it comes to drummers, everyone needs to see and hear Hamid Drake and Han Bennink live

If you like jazz, you will not leave with your arms crossed

You probably will leave in a state of wonder

The great Gary Sisco used to say that Hamid was always Miles next drummer if you know what he means

[jazzbo]

Interesting. See I used to be a drummer and I own two drum kits, and I'm familiar with both Hamid and Hans' work. . . and they really don't interest me that much. And I LOVE jazz. Which just indicates to me that if the interest isn't there, there's no draw towards "supporting" the music. I'm not interested in Katy Perry enough to buy tickets to see her or buy her cds. Same with Hamid Drake and Hans Bennink.

Edited February 9, 2014 by jazzbo

[Clunky]

Ive been lucky enough to see both Han Bennink and Hamid Drake. The former with Eric Boeren's group and the latter with David S Ware. Bennink is amazing to watch, a real genius and I don't use that word lightly

[Steve Reynolds]

Interesting. See I used to be a drummer and I own two drum kits, and I'm familiar with both Hamid and Hans' work. . . and they really don't interest me that much. And I LOVE jazz. Which just indicates to me that if the interest isn't there, there's no draw towards "supporting" the music. I'm not interested in Katy Perry enough to buy tickets to see her or buy her cds. Same with Hamid Drake and Hans Bennink.

Understood

It remains that Hamid and Han are among the greatest drummers who have ever sat behind a kit.

As I've said interest may vary

It is also that many who have seen them live have had their minds bended and altered greatly

[jazzbo]

Well it's your opinion that they're among the greatest. That's cool. It's not my opinion, that's what remains with me.

[Scott Dolan]

Glad to see this discussion

Of course mileage may vary

And I know most or many of these musicians don't often even play near me and I'm near NYC

I will say this

What some of them DO play might surprise people

Even my wife knows when it comes to drummers, everyone needs to see and hear Hamid Drake and Han Bennink live

If you like jazz, you will not leave with your arms crossed

You probably will leave in a state of wonder

The great Gary Sisco used to say that Hamid was always Miles next drummer if you know what he means

Agreed.

I got to see Hamid play at Viz back in 2007. And I watched him from the balcony above looking straight down on his kit. His economy of movement is even more startling from that angle. And naturally, he tore the shit out of the joint.

I still think his playing on Parker's Painted Spring (with one of my all time faves, Daniel Carter) is some of the best drumming I've ever heard. No era barred.

Oh, and there is nothing great about Gary Sisco. He is quite possibly the most miserable human being to have ever lived. And his street corner ranting becomes less and less impressive the more you study it.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Scott Dolan

[Steve Reynolds]

Plus if one wonders why I mention Drake and Bennink, it's simply because of all the drummers that I think of as the great modern drummers that veer towards the outside or avant directions of the music, those two are probably the most connected to the swing and groove element of any of the others.

Hard to think of any drummers of any era that personify those qualities more than Drake and Bennink

As Han said during his 70th birthday celebration at Columbia University a couple of years ago:

"drums are made for swinging"

Qow, Baby

[xybert]

Some really interesting points have been made. I think the other thing to be conscious of is that Steve's list is not a be all and end all of contemporary jazz. I'm a reasonably avid follower of new releases (although i am 'stuck' in the zone of keeping up with new releases while catching up on 80+ years of music) and as much as i respect Evan Parker and Schlippenbach and co i just don't find them particularly exciting at the moment. I have been really in to them in the past, ask me again next month etc...

I think one of the hard things is that The Greats aren't always love at first hearing, and that goes for old greats and new greats. Years before i was really in to jazz i picked up Ellington, Monk, Coltrane and Miles records and they basically did nothing for me. When i did get seriously in to jazz they still took me ages to really click with. I guess my point is that sometimes the greats take a lot of listening to get in to, but you persevere due to the critical concensus (among other reasons). What's to make the dubious listener persevere with contemporary stuff?

[JSngry]

All I can say about Drake i that I first heard him on record about 35 years ago, on that Fred Anderson Moers album where he was known as "Hank" Drake, that to this day, I have never knowingly had the chance to catch him live, and that if that day ever comes, I'm willing to make a fair-to-good number of adjustments (only most of which might be sane and/or sensible) to see to it that I get there. I can't say that he's exactly "overrecorded", but he's amply available on record. But - records are one thing, live is another, and I can tell from the feel on the records that live is something I want to experience with him before it's too late.

[Scott Dolan]

Agreed on Parker and Schlippenbach, xybert. European Improv does absolutely nothing for me. It's cold, mechanical, and uninteresting. It is exactly the opposite of American Jazz.

I can get behind cats like David Murray, Joe Lovano, Branford Marsalis, William Parker, Ellery Eskelin, Hamid Drake, Daniel Carter, Cooper-Moore, David S. Ware, Kenny Garrett, etc... All modern day players.

So I agree with Steve in principle. There are still many great players out there to listen to and celebrate.

Just this past year I really got into Fredrik Kronkvist quite a bit. A wonderful young "inside" player.

All I can say about Drake i that I first heard him on record about 35 years ago, on that Fred Anderson Moers album where he was known as "Hank" Drake, that to this day, I have never knowingly had the chance to catch him live, and that if that day ever comes, I'm willing to make a fair-to-good number of adjustments (only most of which might be sane and/or sensible) to see to it that I get there. I can't say that he's exactly "overrecorded", but he's amply available on record. But - records are one thing, live is another, and I can tell from the feel on the records that live is something I want to experience with him before it's too late.

I've never seen someone play so effortlessly. I suppose his 20ft wingspan helps, but he's really amazing just to watch play. Super nice cat to chat with as well.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Scott Dolan

[MomsMobley]

All I can say about Drake i that I first heard him on record about 35 years ago, on that Fred Anderson Moers album where he was known as "Hank" Drake, that to this day, I have never knowingly had the chance to catch him live, and that if that day ever comes, I'm willing to make a fair-to-good number of adjustments (only most of which might be sane and/or sensible) to see to it that I get there. I can't say that he's exactly "overrecorded", but he's amply available on record. But - records are one thing, live is another, and I can tell from the feel on the records that live is something I want to experience with him before it's too late.

If not 'overrated' per se (since he's largely ignored), Drake is definitely over-revered... He's fine, 'looks great,' whatever (I've only seen him do jazz, not funk/reggae), but hardly a mind-blower and if I never hear another Wm Parker/Hamid Drake duet live or on record... I'll be fine, thanks. (Excellent point btw on why we can-- & ultimately must-- mostly ignore Miles saxists in this era; to me they're like a section trumpeter in a Ray Charles band or whatnot, definitely NOT Fathead level or anywhere close to it, Sonny Fortune included)

Now this drummer--

[Scott Dolan]

So Drake doesn't deserve the accolades and reverence he receives?

Who do you blame? The mainstream media?

I can't even comprehend how somebody in one of the more largely ignored music genre's, listened to almost exclusively by the hardcore, can somehow be over-rated or "over-revered".

[MomsMobley]

So Drake doesn't deserve the accolades and reverence he receives?

Who do you blame? The mainstream media?

I can't even comprehend how somebody in one of the more largely ignored music genre's, listened to almost exclusively by the hardcore, can somehow be over-rated or "over-revered".

Absolutely not. He's a competent, demi- 'eclectic' drummer-- big deal. But he's got the look so oooo, he must be 'awesome.' Hardly, or rather, hardly exceptional or exceptionally interesting. Revere Chauncey Morehouse, Vernell Fournier and Osie Johnson and on down the line and by the time you get to Hank or Hamid Drake... why would anyone bother, except somebody's gotta make the gig.

[Clunky]

European Improv has to be the hardest genre to 'get'. I'm not sure I've managed to, however I have enjoyed trying Evan Parker et al and the last way I would describe his music would be cold or mechanical. I like variety in what I listen to and I like to be taken out of my comfort zone to gain as wide an appreciation for the music. That's why I like jazz.

[JSngry]

You want a drummer that looks good and sounds good - Al Jackson. Posture, balance, direction of motion translated to exact output, a flowing of energy from source to output straight through with no stops along the way. Looks easy, but isn't, looks great and is. Hey.

I know we're not talking about Al Jackson here, but if any drummer looks good and really does sound good, it's no accident. It's total body muscle memory, and that never happens by accident, especially when it gets up to "that level".

As for Drake, I've never heard him not be in that pocket, so...anything past that, different strokes.

[Scott Dolan]

So Drake doesn't deserve the accolades and reverence he receives?

Who do you blame? The mainstream media?

I can't even comprehend how somebody in one of the more largely ignored music genre's, listened to almost exclusively by the hardcore, can somehow be over-rated or "over-revered".

Absolutely not. He's a competent, demi- 'eclectic' drummer-- big deal. But he's got the look so oooo, he must be 'awesome.' Hardly, or rather, hardly exceptional or exceptionally interesting. Revere Chauncey Morehouse, Vernell Fournier and Osie Johnson and on down the line and by the time you get to Hank or Hamid Drake... why would anyone bother, except somebody's gotta make the gig.

Sorry, I find your assertions incredibly foolish.

If you don't like him, that's fine. But you sound like someone ranting that Miles Davis is overrated while tossing out a bunch of more obscure trumpeters who you think are better.

Highly regarded Jazz artists are such because they earned it. Not because they have a more powerful PR team.

[skeith]

Wish more people would be obsessive about the giants who still walk this earth playing to audiences of dozens and selling recordings in the hundreds

that's why I never bothered with those Bach, Beethoven and Mozart guys ... I mean who cares!!!

Edited February 10, 2014 by skeith

[.:.impossible]

I got to see Hamid play at Viz back in 2007. And I watched him from the balcony above looking straight down on his kit. His economy of movement is even more startling from that angle. And naturally, he tore the shit out of the joint.

I still think his playing on Parker's Painted Spring (with one of my all time faves, Daniel Carter) is some of the best drumming I've ever heard. No era barred.

Oh, and there is nothing great about Gary Sisco. He is quite possibly the most miserable human being to have ever lived. And his street corner ranting becomes less and less impressive the more you study it.

Painter's Spring.

[king ubu]

Glad I was not involved this time

But ...

This is the most annoying aspect of discussing an interest in this music. People telling you you should really be listening more to twenties Armstrong, Bird or at the other end of the spectrum Evan Parker and who knows else. I'll decide that for myself.

This kind of elitist preaching and disdain tainted my experiences with the music of Charlie Parker for some years.

... with the second point there directed at me, I just want to add my 2c, namely that to me audiophilism and the on-going obsession about a few "classics" probably looks at least as elitist ... guess we're just into different things in the end. I mean it's not that I don't enjoy when something sounds good. I'm sorry if I appear elitist (though frankly I don't think I've ever been told I was, neither here nor in any other music discussion on- or offline ... well yeah, my little sis who preferred Ace of Base and stuff like that thought I was very elitist ), but my main driver is an on-going enthusiasm for the music and those that make it (meaning musicians more often than record producers, sound engineers et al, though obviously they're part of it as well), and I hope I will not ever lose that!

Now, granted, not everybody wants to get acquainted with the sounds of Luis Russell or Evan Parker ... but to me it's kind of a necissity to find out ... like: where did that stuff come from? How did drummers sound before Klook and Max? Why does no one tell me about a great m-f like Dave Tough? Is Han Bennink a genius? How does Hamid Drake come accross live? There are thousands of things I want to learn and know, and I just can't be bothered to obsess about the sonic qualities of each and every record I buy (many are just around in one edition anyway, which makes life a bit easier, of course).

So, most often (hey, I get grumpy every now and then, who doesn't?), no offense is intended at all, and I apologize for any offense taken from words of mine. But I'm definitely not out to appear elitist or any such crap, no sir.

[Scott Dolan]

I got to see Hamid play at Viz back in 2007. And I watched him from the balcony above looking straight down on his kit. His economy of movement is even more startling from that angle. And naturally, he tore the shit out of the joint.

I still think his playing on Parker's Painted Spring (with one of my all time faves, Daniel Carter) is some of the best drumming I've ever heard. No era barred.

Oh, and there is nothing great about Gary Sisco. He is quite possibly the most miserable human being to have ever lived. And his street corner ranting becomes less and less impressive the more you study it.

Painter's Spring.

YES!

Good catch. Not sure whether I typed that, or was auto-corrected.

[erwbol]

Glad I was not involved this time

But ...

This is the most annoying aspect of discussing an interest in this music. People telling you you should really be listening more to twenties Armstrong, Bird or at the other end of the spectrum Evan Parker and who knows else. I'll decide that for myself.

This kind of elitist preaching and disdain tainted my experiences with the music of Charlie Parker for some years.

... with the second point there directed at me, I just want to add my 2c, namely that to me audiophilism and the on-going obsession about a few "classics" probably looks at least as elitist ... guess we're just into different things in the end. I mean it's not that I don't enjoy when something sounds good. I'm sorry if I appear elitist (though frankly I don't think I've ever been told I was, neither here nor in any other music discussion on- or offline ... well yeah, my little sis who preferred Ace of Base and stuff like that thought I was very elitist ), but my main driver is an on-going enthusiasm for the music and those that make it (meaning musicians more often than record producers, sound engineers et al, though obviously they're part of it as well), and I hope I will not ever lose that!

Now, granted, not everybody wants to get acquainted with the sounds of Luis Russell or Evan Parker ... but to me it's kind of a necissity to find out ... like: where did that stuff come from? How did drummers sound before Klook and Max? Why does no one tell me about a great m-f like Dave Tough? Is Han Bennink a genius? How does Hamid Drake come accross live? There are thousands of things I want to learn and know, and I just can't be bothered to obsess about the sonic qualities of each and every record I buy (many are just around in one edition anyway, which makes life a bit easier, of course).

So, most often (hey, I get grumpy every now and then, who doesn't?), no offense is intended at all, and I apologize for any offense taken from words of mine. But I'm definitely not out to appear elitist or any such crap, no sir.

The second point was not directed at you, nor anyone on this board in particular. How did you come to believe it was directed at you?

P.S. Anyway, I've lost interest in this off topic discussion and have not been reading replies for several posts back. I'm going to play some electric Miles now.

[king ubu]

been doing just that all day today !

and I thought it was directed at me because of a remark I made - not naming Armstrong but a few others - in another thread were we had the same derailment going on ... but then maybe I have to accept that thread about japanese reissues often just aren't about the music per se but about the sound and presentation of it ... anyway, in the end it's all good

[skeith]

yes....what was this topic orginally about....Agharta... Hamid Drake... I forgot

[Scott Dolan]

I've always wondered if those who gripe about multiple subject changes in a thread berate people in person whenever they change the subject.

[xybert]

I know that threads going off topic is a pet peeve for some and can be an extremely touchy subject. For me i really don't mind it; conversations evolve organically and anyone can bring it back to the original topic at anytime. For some reason conversation can thrive in random places and stopping it cold to start a dedicated thread (or bump an old thread) somehow tends to pour cold water on it... and we're not exactly drowning in conversation here, so... just my two cents.