B. Clugston Posted January 27, 2014 Report Posted January 27, 2014 Most welcome news. Next stop: Volume 4 - the Agharta / Pangaea era. I hope so. That Japan tour yielded some amazing concerts. I suspect they will do the 1971 European tour with Jarrett and Bartz next. Quote
JSngry Posted January 27, 2014 Report Posted January 27, 2014 Most welcome news. Next stop: Volume 4 - the Agharta / Pangaea era. I hope so. That Japan tour yielded some amazing concerts. I suspect they will do the 1971 European tour with Jarrett and Bartz next. October 1970 @ Fillmore West would be my preference. DeJohnette was still on board, and the music was incendiary. Ndudu Leon Chancelor made that 71 Euro tour, and while playing fine, was also by his own admission not quite yet ready to bring it all the way. The Japan tour, yeah, the band was tight as hell by then, some amazing shows indeed. The best recorded that I've heard came out on a boot as Black Satin, from Tokyo 6/19/73 (and w/Liebman still on the band, so it's pre-Fortune), but jeez, that's the best recorded example I've ever heard (including Columbia/Sony albums) of how that band was constantly bouncing off the time back and forth, like an Acid Technicolor Muhammad Ali/James Brown/Miles Davis band. I've really never heard another Miles performance quite like that one in terms of recorded balance between all elements. Quote
Homefromtheforest Posted January 27, 2014 Report Posted January 27, 2014 I hear that the complete "Miles plays the banjo" sessions might be next... Quote
king ubu Posted January 27, 2014 Report Posted January 27, 2014 Most welcome news. Next stop: Volume 4 - the Agharta / Pangaea era. Seems they're going chronologically ... so please more 1970, then yeah, give us some of that 1971 tour, please ... and if possible, a set of the sitar band, too (there's not much known material around though), and then 1973 (two tours ... I'll take two sets, too, though the summer gigs are officially covered by the Montreux and - semi-officially? - Paris discs around), and finally there's Japan 1975. After that, if anyone still has any breath left, give us some goodies from the 80s, too, please! The early period isn't covered by the Montreux box too well, the band with Evans, Stern, Miller, Foster and Cinelu - would love more of that! Quote
A Lark Ascending Posted January 27, 2014 Report Posted January 27, 2014 I hear that the complete "Miles plays the banjo" sessions might be next... I'm waiting for 'The Complete Miles Says Mother******" Should be a fair few albums. I might control my impatience and wait for the mono version. Quote
Guy Berger Posted January 27, 2014 Report Posted January 27, 2014 Most welcome news. Next stop: Volume 4 - the Agharta / Pangaea era. I hope so. That Japan tour yielded some amazing concerts. I suspect they will do the 1971 European tour with Jarrett and Bartz next. October 1970 @ Fillmore West would be my preference. DeJohnette was still on board, and the music was incendiary. Ndudu Leon Chancelor made that 71 Euro tour, and while playing fine, was also by his own admission not quite yet ready to bring it all the way. The Japan tour, yeah, the band was tight as hell by then, some amazing shows indeed. The best recorded that I've heard came out on a boot as Black Satin, from Tokyo 6/19/73 (and w/Liebman still on the band, so it's pre-Fortune), but jeez, that's the best recorded example I've ever heard (including Columbia/Sony albums) of how that band was constantly bouncing off the time back and forth, like an Acid Technicolor Muhammad Ali/James Brown/Miles Davis band. I've really never heard another Miles performance quite like that one in terms of recorded balance between all elements. There were actually two Japan tours, 1973 (which is what Jim is talking about) and 1975 (B Clugston and Kyo are referring to that one). Both have some amazing gigs, some of which I think are better than A+P. They do have different feels as the band's sound evolved over those 18 months. Quote
JSngry Posted January 27, 2014 Report Posted January 27, 2014 ... finally there's Japan 1975. After that, if anyone still has any breath left... Actually...not...there's the band returned to the US with Sam Morrison replacing Sonny Fortune. That is starting to evolve into another direction yet, although since it ended the way it did, it could easily be heard as the sound of a band running out of breath. But either way, that stuff shows that when people talked about The Man With The Horn showing Miles picking up where he had left off, that might be truer than many of them realized at the time. Quote
king ubu Posted January 27, 2014 Report Posted January 27, 2014 your're right indeed about the final US recordings/band of the seventies - but I've not yet spent much time yet listening to that band ... Quote
Steve Reynolds Posted January 27, 2014 Report Posted January 27, 2014 I want hear the 73 and 75 stuff the most as I've never really listened that seriously to either P or A Quote
Guy Berger Posted January 28, 2014 Report Posted January 28, 2014 (edited) ... finally there's Japan 1975. After that, if anyone still has any breath left... Actually...not...there's the band returned to the US with Sam Morrison replacing Sonny Fortune. That is starting to evolve into another direction yet, although since it ended the way it did, it could easily be heard as the sound of a band running out of breath. But either way, that stuff shows that when people talked about The Man With The Horn showing Miles picking up where he had left off, that might be truer than many of them realized at the time. Great point. I think for multiple reasons - the lack of widely available recordings when this music first re-entered the jazz consciousness, the agenda of the people who pushed the re-evaluation of this music (when was Greg Tate's article published?) - the "conventional wisdom" was/is that the 1975 and post-1980 music have no continuity between them. Edited January 28, 2014 by Guy Quote
skeith Posted January 28, 2014 Report Posted January 28, 2014 Glad to see the Fillmore East concerts are finally being properly reissued. That was a really far-out band. A lot of good Steve Grossman solos got cut from the original release, which also sounded terrible compared to boots I've heard. Steve Grossman is among my least favorite 1970-75 Miles saxophonists, but I second this - he sounded a lot better on the April and June stuff that was not officially released. Haven't listed to this stuff for a while.. but my memory of it is that I was disappointed by Grossman....so I am wondering if I should get this box when I have much of this material live with a better version of the band. Do I have it wrong? Quote
jeffcrom Posted January 28, 2014 Report Posted January 28, 2014 Glad to see the Fillmore East concerts are finally being properly reissued. That was a really far-out band. A lot of good Steve Grossman solos got cut from the original release, which also sounded terrible compared to boots I've heard. Steve Grossman is among my least favorite 1970-75 Miles saxophonists, but I second this - he sounded a lot better on the April and June stuff that was not officially released. Haven't listed to this stuff for a while.. but my memory of it is that I was disappointed by Grossman....so I am wondering if I should get this box when I have much of this material live with a better version of the band. Do I have it wrong? Everybody has a different opinion on when Miles reached his peak as a bandleader/conceptualist, but his peak as a trumpeter was 1969-70, in my opinion. To me, this will be worth hearing for that reason alone. And the rest of the band is exciting, or at least interesting, on the chopped-up Fillmore East excerpts. I agree that Steve Grossman adds little worth hearing at this stage in his development. I listened to Black Beauty recently, and had forgotten that he's basically noodling around the horn. Quote
Guy Berger Posted January 28, 2014 Report Posted January 28, 2014 Glad to see the Fillmore East concerts are finally being properly reissued. That was a really far-out band. A lot of good Steve Grossman solos got cut from the original release, which also sounded terrible compared to boots I've heard. Steve Grossman is among my least favorite 1970-75 Miles saxophonists, but I second this - he sounded a lot better on the April and June stuff that was not officially released. Haven't listed to this stuff for a while.. but my memory of it is that I was disappointed by Grossman....so I am wondering if I should get this box when I have much of this material live with a better version of the band. Do I have it wrong? Well, I've already offered my lukewarm semi-defense of Grossman on these recordings. But besides that, Miles and the rhythm section are red hot. Let me also add that - assuming "better version of the band" refers to the March 1970 gigs with Wayne - the group's sound did change pretty quickly during this period, becoming less free-jazzy and more groove-oriented. Less than six months separate the March Fillmore gigs and the Isle of Wight gig, and the gap between March and the first Cellar Door band recordings is less than right months. This stuff isn't redundant from a stylistic standpoint. Quote
B. Clugston Posted January 28, 2014 Report Posted January 28, 2014 I agree Grossman was the least effective of Davis' 1970s saxophonists, but his Fillmore East solos that wound up on the cutting room floor are far superior to Black Beauty. He plays a lot of tenor. Quote
skeith Posted January 28, 2014 Report Posted January 28, 2014 thanks Guy, jeff and B for your helpful comments Quote
jeffcrom Posted January 28, 2014 Report Posted January 28, 2014 I agree Grossman was the least effective of Davis' 1970s saxophonists, but his Fillmore East solos that wound up on the cutting room floor are far superior to Black Beauty. He plays a lot of tenor. Although I haven't heard the unedited June Fillmore East shows, the bits of Grossman that made it the original double album are indeed better than the Black Beauty show. And I listened to an August 2, 1970 show today where Grossman was also much better than in April. It must have been one of his last ones, since Gary Bartz was in the band by the Isle of Wight show on the 29th. Quote
BFrank Posted January 30, 2014 Report Posted January 30, 2014 Amazon US now has pre-order on this for $41.44. I went ahead and placed it. If it comes further down before release they will give you the lower price, too. Quote
king ubu Posted January 31, 2014 Report Posted January 31, 2014 I'm a bit surprised by all the bad-mouthing Grossman gets here ... I'm not a fan, but that applies to most sax players in Miles' bands following Shorter. Liebman certainly was the best, but somehow it seems it was very hard for them to find their place in the whole sound. Compared to most other band members, they played it straight, no wah-wahs, no or very little sound devices (okay, maybe some amplification, Shorter started using that already of course, allows to somewhat play with the sound that comes out of the speakers, but ...). Anyway, I very much agree that this band was a very different one from the lost quintet, even if it's just a question of some months. Also I never enjoyed "Black Beauty" half as much as "Miles at Fillmore", which to me belongs to the finest of all Miles rekkids. And finally, I fully endorse the point made above about Miles the trumpet player being at a pinnacle here. No one who listens to this can retain those (silly) notions of Miles being a mediocre trumpet player not able to play the upper register etc. Quote
David Ayers Posted January 31, 2014 Report Posted January 31, 2014 Still at a low price on amazon.co.uk, not quite as low as it was. Quote
jazzbo Posted January 31, 2014 Report Posted January 31, 2014 I'm a bit surprised by all the bad-mouthing Grossman gets here ... I'm not a fan, but that applies to most sax players in Miles' bands following Shorter. Liebman certainly was the best, but somehow it seems it was very hard for them to find their place in the whole sound. Compared to most other band members, they played it straight, no wah-wahs, no or very little sound devices (okay, maybe some amplification, Shorter started using that already of course, allows to somewhat play with the sound that comes out of the speakers, but ...). Anyway, I very much agree that this band was a very different one from the lost quintet, even if it's just a question of some months. Also I never enjoyed "Black Beauty" half as much as "Miles at Fillmore", which to me belongs to the finest of all Miles rekkids. And finally, I fully endorse the point made above about Miles the trumpet player being at a pinnacle here. No one who listens to this can retain those (silly) notions of Miles being a mediocre trumpet player not able to play the upper register etc. I'm with you Flurin, all the way. Quote
Late Posted January 31, 2014 Report Posted January 31, 2014 Not to derail the thread, but I've always found Grossman the more interesting tenor on Elvin Jones' Live At The Lighthouse. Not the same band, of course, or even the same year ... I think there's something to the argument that, after Shorter, saxophonists in Miles' bands became less and less requisite to the group's sound and direction. Even Liebman — a great tenor player — seemed to feel this way when he asked Miles what the point of him (Liebman) being on the stage was. Miles' response was: "People like to see you move your fingers fast." Quote
David Ayers Posted January 31, 2014 Report Posted January 31, 2014 Flurin has a great point about the integration of the sax in the sound of the band. It may be it is not helped by the mix of some of those live recordings - it tends to sit on top like a too-thin lead thread - a 'dirtier' mix might help. Though the mixes are dirty enough I suppose.... Quote
CraigP Posted January 31, 2014 Report Posted January 31, 2014 I like Sonny Fortune the best of the post-Shorter saxophonists; his first solo on Agartha is hair-raising, and later in the record he contributes some great flute in tandem with Pete Cosey's machine-like guitar noise. And Bartz would be a close second. Quote
Late Posted January 31, 2014 Report Posted January 31, 2014 To me, Bartz is the nadir of post-Shorter saxophonists in a Miles band. I don't dislike him as a musician, but with Miles (to me) he never seemed to get off the ground with his solos. Whenever I listen to the Cellar Door Sessions, I always wonder what they would sound like with Joe Henderson on board. But, temperamentally, I'm not sure how Davis and Henderson would have worked out. (Henderson subbed briefly, I believe, in the 1967 band.) I do like Bartz's Another Earth, particularly the track "UFO." Quote
jazzbo Posted January 31, 2014 Report Posted January 31, 2014 I truly enjoy Bartz with Miles. I guess we're all different. Bartz really brought something new and different to the sound. Quote
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