Stupid chord question

[JSngry]

Well, Cm (Maj 7) to be precise, with the (Maj 7) in the "superscript" position, you know, up and to the right.

Some guys will use a triangle instead of the (Maj 7), but that only works if their manuscript is halfway clean, which is far less than a given.

Edited February 12, 2004 by JSngry

[Jim Alfredson]

I'm doing this in Finale but I can't seem to find how to get a little triangle up there. My buddy Duncan says it can be done, but I'm not seeing it.

I'll have to keep playing it. You're right, Sangry... Western music notation was not made for notating minor organ nuttiness.

[JSngry]

Sometimes a sound is just a sound, you know?

[Free For All]

One thing to remember (assuming these are dominant chords) is if there is an altered 9th (either sharp or flat) the chord scale will be either the diminished or diminished/whole tone (super locrian). If there's an unaltered (natural) 9th the chord scale will be either the mixolydian or the lydian/dominant. I've never seen an altered 9th and natural 9th co-existing in the same dominant chord.

Here's my question- does the lydian/dominant have a "modal" name like the super locrian does? I can't remember- I learned them as diminshed/whole tone and lydian/dominant. Very useful scales, BTW.

[Free For All]

I talked with two friends last night on the phone about this and both gave two different answers and both makes sense.  My friend Bill looked up the chord in a guitarist's chord dictionary and it said it was a G7(-10).  My friend Duncan, who is a theory nutball, said that the common way to describe it is G7(#9) even though that's not technically correct. 

It's just a matter of if you're going to call the note an A# or Bb. "Technically" it would be spelled as an A# (sharp nine) because the chord/scale can only have one type of B (third) in it. Very often it is spelled enharmonically (Bb) to create ease in reading. But I think the overwhelming majority would call that chord a sharp nine.

Sorry I was late to this party!

[Free For All]

a sound is just a sound.......

.....the fundamental things apply....as time goes by......

[scottb]

These type discussions, besides revealing how little I know about chord theory, also make me curious about the jazz musicians of the 50s and 60s. Obviously, some were well educated musically (Miles studied at Julliard for example) but so many were self taught and learned their craft on the juke joint circuit I wonder what their response to the question would be. "Huh?", "F--- you man just play the s----!" or " You dumb mother, it's G7#9!"

Do you think most of them would be able to follow this or not?

[Free For All]

The half-dimished chord was originally taught (in the bop era) as a minor sixth chord. It's just a matter of respelling the same group of notes.

So E-G-Bb-D (E half dim.) was learned as G-Bb-D-E (G minor sixth). Eventually it became commonly known as E half-dim.

I heard both Dizzy and Jimmy Heath describe this.

Back in those days information was passed on by ear, mostly. Formal training has accelerated the assimilation of jazz harmony, or at least made it more readily available. The problem is that students these days acquire a harmonic vocabulary but often have little to say other than running chord scales and such. It's like owning a Porsche but not knowing how to drive.The lesson needs to be that this harmonic knowledge is but a means to an end, not an end in itself. That's a BIG problem with jazz education, IMHO.

[Upright Bill]

Because Bill's a dummy.         

Well, I guess we'll need to cut him some slack, after all, he's a bass player!!

and someone in this discussion's first jazz guitar teacher!

[Joe G]

It's just a matter of if you're going to call the note an A# or Bb. "Technically" it would be spelled as an A# (sharp nine) because the chord/scale can only have one type of B (third) in it. Very often it is spelled enharmonically (Bb) to create ease in reading. But I think the overwhelming majority would call that chord a sharp nine.

Sorry I was late to this party!

Now hold on! :rsmile:

Why can this chord/scale have only one type of 3rd, but two types of the 2nd degree (sharp 9/flat 9)?

From the chapter on Parallel Borrowing in Harmonic Experience:

Jazz musicians use the term "altered scale" to describe the scale shown (G, Ab, Bb, B, Db, Eb, F, G)...

Its strange name persists because its true derivation has not been understood. In our view, tonal material should be identified in terms of the target tonic. Accordingly, the tones of the altered scale are described as follows: Ab, Eb, Bb, and Db are borrowed from C Phrygian; B remains from C Major. The note C, although it could be included in the scale, is typicaly omitted for the same reason that the tonic is usually absent from any dominant-function harmony: One avoids the punch line during the setup of a joke. The tonic is the punch line, and it is best reserved for the end. The altered scale is then redefined as a C Phrygian scale, perceived from G, with two forms of seventh (B flat and B natural) and the tonic unspoken. In other words, it is an especially sonorous form of borrowing from Phrygian.

I know it's hard to read that out of context, but the basic idea is simply adding new tones to a dominant V chord in order to heighten the dramatic effect, but that for clarity (something that jazz theory is not especially known for), the added (or altered) tones should be viewed (and named) in relation to the tonic. The key we are in, not the root we are on. I would ask again, what do your ears tell you those tones are? If a chordal player is comping behind a soloist on a blues in G7, and on the third or so chorus adds that Bb on top of the seventh chord, the soloist will likely play the "G Blues Scale", with that minor third up in there. And when it's in the V chord, we hear it as a minor seventh, not an augmented sixth.

I'm loathe to come across as correcting you, Paul, especially since I'm going on the assumption that you are the superior musician, and probably by far. So I share all this (if it makes any sense) in all humility.

Re: the "Lydian/Dominant" scale, this is listed as the "Overtone Scale" in Mick Goodrick's book (don't know why), and in tetrachord nomenclature as "Mixolydian over Lydian" (Mix/Lyd), as well as "sharp-four flat-seven" or perhaps more correctly, "aug-four minor-seven" in Harmonic Experience. Haven't come across any other names for it. It is a very beautiful scale.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In the end, sounds are just sounds, as Jim said, and one should analyze if one also doesn't analyze. It's good to think things through; but also learn to let ourselves hear things without naming them.

[Harold_Z]

Tell that shit to Jimmy Nolan !

[Big Wheel]

The reason the 4th mode of melodic minor (lydian dominant) is called the overtone scale is because it includes the first dozen or so notes of the natural overtone series. It's sort of an arbitrary designation, since once you get past the 5th or 6th overtone the natural overtones start getting real out of tune, at least with respect to an equal-tempered piano keyboard.

The notes of the overtone series starting from C would be:

C

C an octave up

G (the 5th)

C again

E (the 3rd)

G again

Bb (the b7)

C again

D (the 9)

E again

F# (the #11, though very out of tune on a typically tuned piano)

G again

A (the 6/13)

At that point all the notes of the Lydian dominant scale have been included. See here for a visual representation of all this, or just google "overtone series."

At a certain point I side with Jim on the whole Western analysis thing. European theory is simply not equipped to deal well with jazz harmony once you leave the major modes. Once you get to diminished scale harmony, things get REAL hairy. There you have a chord/scale with 8 notes, but you only have 7 letters with which to name the notes. Which one should you double? And how is it that this scale is virtually interchangeable (at least with respect to function) with the 7-note melodic minor mode we've been talking about?

I sat in on a workshop with Barry Harris about 6 years ago and he started off by saying something like, "I don't know where all this II-V-I stuff got started. There ain't no such thing as no II. A II is just a IV with the 6th in the bass." Food for thought.

Edited February 13, 2004 by Big Wheel

[Free For All]

I'm loathe to come across as correcting you, Paul, especially since I'm going on the assumption that you are the superior musician, and probably by far. So I share all this (if it makes any sense) in all humility.

Don't assume anything, Joe. I'm no expert at this stuff. I'm always looking for ways to explain things that I've always accepted because "that's the way it is". I find myself in situations (usually when teaching) when some wise-ass kid (god bless'em) starts asking "why?" and I have to logically explain something so it makes sense. I like when that happens because it leads me to figure out things for myself, too. That's what I like about teaching.

So I'm contemplating your post- your point about the "double 9th" is well taken. I think it's interesting to compare the two scales derived from the ascending melodic minor- the lydian dominant and the diminished whole tone. The former makes more sense as a scale in the traditional sense of scale degrees-

G (1) A (2) B (3) C# (4) D (5) E (6) F (7).

But when you move to the other mode, the 9th "splits" into #9/b9 but the 5th and 6th "merge" to create the #5. You can't really assign the scale degrees as readily to the resulting scale- G Ab Bb B C# D# F G. The tonic triad of this scale is an augmented triad, right (G B D#)? There are two "nines" but one of the scale degrees 4-5-6 is omitted, right? Is C# a sharp four or flat five? Is D# a sharp five or flat six?

I know, don't worry about it if it sounds good. Maybe that's good advice. :rsmile:

My brain hurts now. Maybe Sangrey or one of the other "theory heads" will weigh in here with their take on this.

[Jim Alfredson]

Ya'll lost me on page one! My theory is not that advanced. Although the statement attributed to Barry Harris is very interesting.

[Free For All]

I sat in on a workshop with Barry Harris about 6 years ago and he started off by saying something like, "I don't know where all this II-V-I stuff got started. There ain't no such thing as no II. A II is just a IV with the 6th in the bass." Food for thought.

That ties in with what I said a few posts back about the half-dim. chord. Those cats from that era originally thought of it as an inversion (minor chord w/6th in the bass).

Edited February 13, 2004 by Free For All

[Big Wheel]

Here's a really weird but sorta interesting way to think about the diminished/whole-tone or altered scale:

A melodic minor scale is the same as the Dorian mode, except the 7th has been raised, right? You could call it a Dorian #7 (of course, the Dorian already has a flatted seventh, so you're basically making it a natural 7th).

So now, slide up the notes of the melodic minor scale. If the melodic minor scale is a Dorian #7, the second mode is a Phrygian #6, then a Lydian #5 (better known as Lydian Augmented), then a Mixolydian #4 (aka "Lydian dominant"), Aeolian #3, Locrian #2 (actually the most common name for this scale)....

and then, we come to the mode we've been talking about. The "altered" scale is just a major ("Ionian") scale, except that the ROOT has been raised. Weird, huh? Really, the simplest way to talk about such a scale, if we don't want the problem of two 9s and a disappearing 5th or 6th degree, is to think of it as an Ionian #1.

Of course, then there come all these other problems to deal with...

Edited February 13, 2004 by Big Wheel

[Free For All]

That is weird, Wheel! Would that be the "Irony-an" mode?

[Free For All]

Late night theory jam! Got to love it!

[Jim Alfredson]

I don't know what those modes are. I mean, I've heard the names, but I have no idea what a Dorian mode is or a Mxylplikian mode or whatever.

But I know what sounds good over a G7(#9)!!!

[Big Wheel]

I envy you, man. I'd gladly forget all this shit if it meant I could play like Brad Mehldau or Jason Moran.

[Jim Alfredson]

I can't play like those guys but I can play a nutty Don Patterson minor blues!

[Free For All]

I don't know what those modes are.  I mean, I've heard the names, but I have no idea what a Dorian mode is or a Mxylplikian mode or whatever.

Wasn't there a Mr. Mxlpzytk or something like that who was one of Superman's enemies? If I remember you had to get him to say his name backwards and then he'd disappear. Cat played the shit out of a G7 #9 though!

[Free For All]

Cat played the shit out of a G7 #9 though!

I mean F# MA7 #1!

[Jim Alfredson]

Yes, that was the reference. I used to read Superman comics as a kid.

By the way, this has been a fascinating (even if I'm lost) discussion and has led me to the following observation: We need to get more musicians up in this biyatch!

[Free For All]

I had a great comic collection that I gave away! Doh!

Remember "Metal Men"?