Stupid chord question

[Jim Alfredson]

So I'm writing a chart of a minor Jimmy Smith blues and for the life of me I don't know the name of this chord...

In the key of G, on piano, you'd play a G, a B, an F, and a Bb on top. It's the classic James Brown funky chord. I've played it a million times myself, but I guess I don't know the name of it. A G7#9 or something?

I'm self taught and I'm still putting names to the shit that I've known for years! Thanks for the help.

[tonym]

Hello Young Smith.

The G7+9 would have G, Ab, Bb,B, C#, D#, F, G and is a common chord in minor blues (used as the V in a Cmin blues).

There is quite a bit of tension in it but it resolves many ways --as you probably know.

Would that be the one?

tonym

[Harold_Z]

I think Jim means using as the I chord.

I always thought of it as a #9 chord.

Edited February 12, 2004 by Harold_Z

[Uncle Skid]

Looks like a G7#9 to me: In G, G=1, B=3, F=b7, and Bb=#9.

[Big Wheel]

Everyone is correct.

G7#9 describes the specific chord you are playing. However, Tony is also right: under Jamey Aebersold/David Baker "chord/scale" theory, G7#9 is a shorthand way of denoting the "altered" or "Super Locrian" scale (the 7th mode of Ab melodic minor). Under this system, you could add a b9, #11, and #5 to the chord and STILL acceptably write it as just "G7#9," rather than the full "G7 b9,#9,#11,#5."

But it wouldn't sound half as funky.

[Joe G]

I know Jim put this nit out there so I could pick it. Everybody calls this chord G7#9, but if the note in question is B flat, why aren't we calling it G7 flat 10? That's is in fact what that note is: the minor third of G. And so the chord is a seventh chord with both forms of the third. Simple as that.

More "proof": in the context of a II-V-I chord progression, in the key of C, the B flat added to the V (G7) chord functions as the minor seventh of the upcoming tonic. Calling it a #9 (or A#) means that, veiwed from the tonic, it's being labeled as the augmented 6th. Does the ear really hear that? Not mine at least.

If that's not clear, let me know.

My source: Harmonic Experience, by W.A. Mathieu.

[Upright Bill]

I would call it a G minor add 9 if I where using it as the I in a minor blues.

[Upright Bill]

Jeez I hate it when someone slips in a better answer while I'm typing!

[Big Wheel]

Technically, you're right, Joe. But under chord/scale theory, the idea of a flat 10 poses some problems. Think about it this way: in a diatonic scale, there are seven notes. All the notes have to have different letter names. So if G7#9 is based on a 7th mode of melodic minor, it follows that the scale is:

melodic minor: Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F G Ab

7th mode: G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F G

So under chord/scale theory, if you called the sharp nine a flat ten, then you'd really have to call what's obviously the THIRD of the chord a "flat 11."

Oops--edited 'cause I accidentally called the Cb a Cbb.

Edited February 12, 2004 by Big Wheel

[Joe G]

I don't have much time at the moment, but I'm pretty sure that C flat is the minor third of A flat, not Cbb. More later.

[Big Wheel]

Yep, I noticed that and just corrected it.

[Uncle Skid]

Bill - why would you call it a G minor add 9? I would think that way that chord is voiced (Bb on top) would mean that the Bb is functioning as an extension, and not as the minor 3rd.

tonym has a good point -- it could also be called C7+9 or C7ALT, as there is no 5 in the chord. You could add b5, #5, and b9, and it would still be C7ALT, right?

This is cool stuff, but it's confusing at times.

[Joe G]

Because Bill's a bassist.

Edited February 12, 2004 by Joe G

[JSngry]

Everybody calls this chord G7#9, but if the note in question is B flat, why aren't we calling it G7 flat 10? .

Because we want gigs?

[Uncle Skid]

Because Bill's a dummy.

Well, I guess we'll need to cut him some slack, after all, he's a bass player!!

[JSngry]

I always love it when people try to analyze "black music" with "European" systems. It's like describing a painting with power tools.

[JSngry]

Seriously, I'm a bit confused - Jim said that the tune in question was a minor blues. So is this G7 chord the dominant or the root of the song? Because if it's the root, and the rest of the song conforms to "typical" G minor blues conventions, then technically, what you'd have might very well be considered a Gmin7(b4).

Wanna talk about Monet? Hold on, lemme go get my power sander...

[Joe G]

Because Bill's a dummy.         

Well, I guess we'll need to cut him some slack, after all, he's a bass player!!

And I love it when people quote your post before you edited it!

[Upright Bill]

Bill - why would you call it a G minor add 9? I would think that way that chord is voiced (Bb on top) would mean that the Bb is functioning as an extension, and not as the minor 3rd.

tonym has a good point -- it could also be called C7+9 or C7ALT, as there is no 5 in the chord. You could add b5, #5, and b9, and it would still be C7ALT, right?

This is cool stuff, but it's confusing at times.

Why would a guitarist, of all people, think that a chord needs to be stacked properly? You guys never play 1, 3, 5, .... its always 1, 7, 1, 3, 1, 5, 1....

If you look at just the notes you can come up with many names for the collection. The point I was trying to make was that you have to look at it in context.

[Upright Bill]

Because Bill's a bassist.

Which implies that I am always right . Back at Jazz camp last summer during combo class during one song at the same spot each time I played the wrong note because every time I did the pianist got yelled at. Hence, I am incapable of playing the wrong chord.

[Joe G]

Everybody calls this chord G7#9, but if the note in question is B flat, why aren't we calling it G7 flat 10? .

Because we want gigs?

Do ya wanna gig with me? Well, do ya??

[JSngry]

Is that a gun in you hand, or are you just glad to see me?

[couw]

both?

(hey, it's Clint you PUNK!)

[Jim Alfredson]

Ah! Confusion ensues the Musician's Forum! I should've stated that the minor blues in question is in Cm. So the G7(#9) chord is the five chord in the minor blues before going back to the tonic.

I talked with two friends last night on the phone about this and both gave two different answers and both makes sense. My friend Bill looked up the chord in a guitarist's chord dictionary and it said it was a G7(-10). My friend Duncan, who is a theory nutball, said that the common way to describe it is G7(#9) even though that's not technically correct. It's just the best way to write it since most people will know what you're talking about.

Here's another one. When the minor blues resolves to the tonic it does so to a Cm chord with a MAJOR seventh. A major/minor chord. Do you denote this simply Cm/M7?

[JSngry]

I would, yeah.