Coltrane's work on Prestige

[Chuck Nessa]

Exactly what Jim said.

!

I have and dig the Miles prestige stuff with Coltrane, bringing up Blue Train reminded me of another reason why i previously never explored Coltrane's Prestige leader discs = Blue Train has never been a favourite of mine.

Blue Train has never been a favorite of mine either.

Listened to Dakar earlier today, I really like that session and I like the RVG.

Blue Train was the favorite of Mr. Coltrane according to the interview included on the Dragon Miles set.

[Joe]

John Litweiler's THE FREEDOM PRINCIPLE also features a really nice discussion of SOULTRANE and its (I agree, vital) role in the formation of Coltrane's mature aesthetic(s). "Good Bait" indeed...

[jazzbo]

Exactly what Jim said.

!

I have and dig the Miles prestige stuff with Coltrane, bringing up Blue Train reminded me of another reason why i previously never explored Coltrane's Prestige leader discs = Blue Train has never been a favourite of mine.

Blue Train has never been a favorite of mine either.

Listened to Dakar earlier today, I really like that session and I like the RVG.

Blue Train was the favorite of Mr. Coltrane according to the interview included on the Dragon Miles set.

That's fine with me. I've heard it enough though myself.

[Cali]

I always kind of assumed that everybody acquired this music (all of it) as soon as they had access to it (in my case, some used original vinyl, some reissue vinyl, and some original CD's). Why? Because it's Coltrane.

I know I held back on this material for many years because the word was 1) Coltrane here was early and unformed, "not really Coltrane"; 2) the material was too traditional and boring compared to the later, more revolutionary Coltrane; and 3) the only "true" Coltrane was found in his Impulse explorations (though everyone also loved The Gentle Side of JC). Obviously, actually hearing the Prestige material shows otherwise.

Yeah, similar points to what mjzee is saying for me. I've definitely enjoyed Coltrane's music in the past but i never went crazy for him or other Tenor Sax Heroes like i did Monk, Mingus, Ellington etc and when it comes to sax i tend to gravitate towards alto players for whatever reason. I think only getting in to This Music in the last 8 years or so, it's arguable that Coltrane's impact on my ears was lessened by all the players who he's directly influenced, whereas by comparison to this day there is NO ONE that sounds like Monk, for example (and you can site Herbie Nichols, Andrew Hill, Don Pullen or whoever else until the cows come home but they all have their own thing to my ears, which is great!).

I know that it's arguable that no one sounds quite like Coltrane, but he really is the sound of modern tenor sax; it's all pervasive. Anyway, that's my half baked, ass pulled reasoning; all bullshit aside although enjoyable i just never found Coltrane exciting in the same way as Monk, Ornette, Threadgill and on and on...

So, i've enjoyed Coltrane but haven't gone crazy for him and therefore never felt a huge need to get in to the Prestige stuff, which i definitely perceived as being inessential.

This thread has changed my mind. I don't have it anymore but i used to really enjoy the Burrell/Coltrane album. I probably don't need all the Prestige stuff at this stage, but as i literally have none of it in my collection, there'll be no double ups for me and it makes economic sense to get the boxed sets (if i just wanted to get 4 leader dates they would pretty much costs the same as a box set = may as well get the box set).

I should have really checked here first whether it was a good idea rather than getting Fearless Leader but i went ahead and ordered this:

Amazon UK http://www.amazon.co.uk/His-Prestige-Albums-John-Coltrane/dp/B004XPM3LC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1387690484&sr=8-1&keywords=coltrane+prestige+box

Discogs http://www.discogs.com/John-Coltrane-His-Prestige-Albums/release/4739522

12 albums, just the leader dates, no bonus tracks, 12 CDs in 3 CD double jewel cases. It doesn't really make much difference but i like that each album is on it's own CD. I am really looking forward to chilling with this over the holiday season. Should keep me going for a while, and if i feel the need i'll follow it up with the Side Steps and Interplay boxes.

Edit to fix picture.

The "Traneing In" disc from this set is not the original Prestige album. The track listing on this version is actually a composite from Trane's Blue Note, Atlantic, Impulse and Prestige recordings and omits several of the original tracks. This is confirmed by the dates on this disc (1961-63). By 1961 Coltrane was long gone from Prestige.

The track listing from the original "Traneing In" is:

1. Traneing In

2. Slow Dance

3. Bass Blues

4. You Leave Me Breathless

5. Soft Lights and Sweet Music

[GA Russell]

Just in case - and to get back to mere profane facts - this one is a much better option than the 12 albums set depicted above:

http://jpc.de/jpcng/mobile/detail/-/art/John-Coltrane-1926-1967-The-Prestige-Recordings/hnum/1988951

It comes with a thick booklet, whilst the albums box probably has none whatsoever (I have the three thematic sets and kept some OJCCDs I had before ... but I've seen the 16 CD set and it looks good).

I'm a little bit amazed by some of the statements here ... how can you go into jazz for a while without hearing Coltrane at least on Miles' Prestige albums or "Blue Train"? And why should the later be an undisputed classic when it's from the midst of the period when Coltrane wasn't *there* yet?

That's a great price, 54,99 euros!

Edited December 23, 2013 by GA Russell

[king ubu]

Great post, Mr. Sangrey! Frankly that Russell album was never really a favourite (give me Outer Space! And Five Spot! And Ezz-thetics and the other Riversides, of course!) but that one Coltrane solo ... indeed!

The "Traneing In" disc from this set is not the original Prestige album. The track listing on this version is actually a composite from Trane's Blue Note, Atlantic, Impulse and Prestige recordings and omits several of the original tracks. This is confirmed by the dates on this disc (1961-63). By 1961 Coltrane was long gone from Prestige.

The track listing from the original "Traneing In" is:

1. Traneing In
2. Slow Dance
3. Bass Blues
4. You Leave Me Breathless
5. Soft Lights and Sweet Music

That would be very, very weird! These Universal Italy sets do nothing but repackage OJCCDs to my best knowledge. Guess it's just a mistake on discog's end.
The scan from amazon suggests so, too:

Can't find any official tracklist though (checked www.universalmusic.it/jazz/ and www.jazzecho.de, the official website of Universal Germany, which lists some of these Italian boxes, but not the Coltrane set).

Just in case - and to get back to mere profane facts - this one is a much better option than the 12 albums set depicted above:

http://jpc.de/jpcng/mobile/detail/-/art/John-Coltrane-1926-1967-The-Prestige-Recordings/hnum/1988951

It comes with a thick booklet, whilst the albums box probably has none whatsoever (I have the three thematic sets and kept some OJCCDs I had before ... but I've seen the 16 CD set and it looks good).

I'm a little bit amazed by some of the statements here ... how can you go into jazz for a while without hearing Coltrane at least on Miles' Prestige albums or "Blue Train"? And why should the later be an undisputed classic when it's from the midst of the period when Coltrane wasn't *there* yet?

That's a great price, 54,99 euros!

I think you only get it for that price from JPC (which is a fine shop), Amazon doesn't even seem to list this 2012 reissue.

It's indeed cardboard sleeves in a cap-box, but unlike many of those reissues, it holds a real booklet.

Me, I'm rather tempted to go for the 12 albums box to have the stuff in LP sequence again, but that would be the third time buying most of the music and there's plenty of other stuff to check out, really

[Gheorghe]

The Prestige records of any artist (Miles, Trane, Jackie McLean and others) are great for just enjoying some great music done by great musicians, but without much time invested for rehearsals or arrangements.

I like all of those if I just want to relax and hear lot of good blowing. In that way, they are all classics, even if other labels gave them more time and more money to really make records.....

[king ubu]

One that's not been mentioned at all so far, and that I grew to like an awful lot: Black Pearls ... it's dark, it's brooding, it might sound meandering at spots ... but it's Trane on his journey and he's destined and in charge, I think:

"Soultrane" and some others aren't "jams" at all to my ears (nor is the debut "Coltrane", which sounds very well thought out - and those thoughts were implemented well, too!) ... this one might be, but it's also - to me - something of a late 50s counterpart to, say "One Down, One Up" (or the oft-mentioned Paris concert w/Miles from 1960) - you get Coltrane in full action stretching it and taking it to the limints. There's nothing easy about "Black Pearls".

[Milestones]

I do feel that a lot of what Trane appeared on in those days was of the loose, blowing variety. Nothing wrong with that. It can produce great results; it can also produce mediocre results, but that can happen with a well-planned record too. What I'm hearing sounds of pretty similar quality, and perhaps the key differences are in who appears on the dates--Waldron, Byrd, Garland, Burrell, etc.

It is astonishing to me how much Coltrane recorded in the late 50s. There were many prolific artists then, but can anyone else match his amazing output of leader + sideman dates?

[Larry Kart]

The Coltrane album of the so-called "sheets of sound" era that blew my mind at the time (it still does) is a sideman date, Wilbur Harden's "Mainstream 1958" (Savoy). The relationship between the way Trane was playing then rhythmically and the glassy smooth, gliding, almost impossibly even feel of Louis Hayes' drumming was really something.

[Cali]

Great post, Mr. Sangrey! Frankly that Russell album was never really a favourite (give me Outer Space! And Five Spot! And Ezz-thetics and the other Riversides, of course!) but that one Coltrane solo ... indeed!

The "Traneing In" disc from this set is not the original Prestige album. The track listing on this version is actually a composite from Trane's Blue Note, Atlantic, Impulse and Prestige recordings and omits several of the original tracks. This is confirmed by the dates on this disc (1961-63). By 1961 Coltrane was long gone from Prestige.

The track listing from the original "Traneing In" is:

1. Traneing In

2. Slow Dance

3. Bass Blues

4. You Leave Me Breathless

5. Soft Lights and Sweet Music

That would be very, very weird! These Universal Italy sets do nothing but repackage OJCCDs to my best knowledge. Guess it's just a mistake on discog's end.

The scan from amazon suggests so, too:

Can't find any official tracklist though (checked www.universalmusic.it/jazz/ and www.jazzecho.de, the official website of Universal Germany, which lists some of these Italian boxes, but not the Coltrane set).

This is the track list of "Traneing In" from the 12 CD box set from xybert's post:

Discogs http://www.discogs.c...release/4739522

According to ALLMUSIC.com, THIS is the version of Traneing In included in this box set.

http://www.allmusic.com/album/traneing-in-mw0001592710

[David Ayers]

The tracklist at universal.it is here, showing the correct Traneing In. These are stated to be remastered, though that doesn't always mean anything.

http://www.universalmusic.it/jazz/artista/discografia/?ida=306689

[Bluesnik]

I saw this boxset some days back, and while I'm sure the back pic was the same, I'm not so sure about the cover. But it was definitely a collection of all his albums for Prestige.

[xybert]

John Litweiler's THE FREEDOM PRINCIPLE also features a really nice discussion of SOULTRANE and its (I agree, vital) role in the formation of Coltrane's mature aesthetic(s). "Good Bait" indeed...

Thanks for mentioning this; i have a copy of this book at home and with my newfound burst of enthusiasm for Coltrane i'm really looking forward to revisiting it.

[xybert]

The tracklist at universal.it is here, showing the correct Traneing In. These are stated to be remastered, though that doesn't always mean anything.

http://www.universalmusic.it/jazz/artista/discografia/?ida=306689

Whew... nice spotting by Cali but i'm reasonably positive that it'll be an error on Discogs' part. I will be severely annoyed if it is indeed the wrong version of Traneing In in the box set, but after i took a second it does seem unlikely. Anyway, i'll confirm once the set arrives.

And yeah, 'remastered'... part of me almost hopes that it's not a new remaster, as i'd rather go with the 'if it ain't broke' method than risk a potentially bad remaster...

[xybert]

!

I have and dig the Miles prestige stuff with Coltrane, bringing up Blue Train reminded me of another reason why i previously never explored Coltrane's Prestige leader discs = Blue Train has never been a favourite of mine.

Blue Train has never been a favorite of mine either.

Listened to Dakar earlier today, I really like that session and I like the RVG.

I'm really looking forward to hearing Dakar... even with realistic expectations i'm getting more and more excited about hearing this material on the whole... i feel like there's been this goldmine sitting right under my nose... "i see, said the blind man..."

[ejp626]

I thought I had heard all of Coltrane's Prestige sessions, but now it looks like I have overlooked Stardust, so I'll have to look into correcting that.

[Neal Pomea]

I thought I had heard all of Coltrane's Prestige sessions, but now it looks like I have overlooked Stardust, so I'll have to look into correcting that.

I somehow missed The Believer, but it looks like I might have the rest. I don't know who could do without these Prestige recordings.

[Guy Berger]

I do feel that a lot of what Trane appeared on in those days was of the loose, blowing variety. Nothing wrong with that. It can produce great results; it can also produce mediocre results, but that can happen with a well-planned record too. What I'm hearing sounds of pretty similar quality, and perhaps the key differences are in who appears on the dates--Waldron, Byrd, Garland, Burrell, etc.

It is astonishing to me how much Coltrane recorded in the late 50s. There were many prolific artists then, but can anyone else match his amazing output of leader + sideman dates?

It isn't that astonishing - it paid the rent, and he was a highly in-demand sideman. It's also likely that he became more reliable once he kicked heroin in the spring of 1957, and gigging with Monk required less traveling than gigging with Miles (his recording frequency slowed a little in 1958 once he rejoined Miles).

[Neal Pomea]

Nice one i'm listening to right now!

[Soulstation1]

Buy the 16 disc set

[Milestones]

I have to say I'm a little surprised there is so much love for these Trane recordings, years before the "classic quartet."

[king ubu]

Years before? Coltrane's "real" career was about a dozen years long ... in late 1955 he joined Miles with whom he played the following year, 1957 was a major watershed year (with the Monk gig probably the decisive moment), 1958 was the return to Miles ("Milestones", and that great date with "Love for Sale") ... Coltrane's music and his playing evolved amazingly fast and quick, took new turns ... might well be that "Giant Steps" is kind of a summary of that period ... but it's the Prestige stuff where you can hear it evolve, where you can hear how Trane gets more and more focused (after all he does sound focused already on plenty of the 1956 dates ... the album with Dameron is the prime example there, dig that wonderful sound!) and strides in big steps towards the fine things that would follow ... kind of, if you want, from his own sax style to his own music. Much of it is about getting there, being there is just a quick stop for anyone with a curious mind, after that it's on to the next mark or level or whatever ... pursuance, resolution, serenity ... and to bring things into perspective, after all, it took Coltrane a while to get it down with Impulse ... not to put down "Ballads" or the albums with Hartman and Ellington, they're wonderful, but there are only a few glimpses of that constantly moving spirit that shines up very much so on the live recordings from the Village Vanguard ... sure, there's the wonderful and mellow "Coltrane", some grand studio material on "Live at Birdland" (Alabama!), but it's only with "Crescent" that he made a studio album that's of one as are the best on Prestige ("Soultrane"!) and Atlantic. Also to get the full story you'll need the live material, too ... the Carnegie Hall concert w/Monk (also from 1957 of course), the 1960 tour with Miles that's been mentioned several times, the NYC airchecks with Dolphy, the European tours of the early sixties and more ... it kinda all falls together, it was such a short and intense period of work, to split it up too much into different periods makes little sense in the end, though of course we all do that constantly, to make our lives easier ... but with Coltrane, I really wouldn't want to do anything other than try and wrap around my mind about all of it, the entirety of his legacy (and yes, of course my mind is threatening to burst, throbbing constantly ...)

[paul secor]

I have to say I'm a little surprised there is so much love for these Trane recordings, years before the "classic quartet."

It was less than three years between his last Prestige recordings and the recordings with the "classic quartet" at the Vanguard.

It was only about eight and a half years after his last Prestige recording and his passing.

Trane blazed quite a trail within a relatively short time.

[Milestones]

Exactly my point...Trane's career was objectively very short in years (in essence from 1955-1967), and thus even a span of 2 or 3 years seems long. Not to mention that there were a ton or recordings. It is indeed mind-boggling how much of his work was recorded. There is no shortage of "classic quartet" music, especially if we include the live stuff; but the entirety of Coltrane's output is staggering.