Blue Note - How Did They Stay Afloat When Other Jazz Labels Folded?

[Teasing the Korean]

Maybe this is common knowledge, but I was thinking about how Fantasy managed to stay in business because of CCR, and all these other labels (Prestige, Riverside, etc.) went under, and everything then became part of OJC.

What did Blue Note do differently that allowed them to stay in business? Obviously, there was very high artistic quality, but there's no direct correlation between artistic merit and sales.

Is there a simple answer, or were several factors involved?

[jazzbo]

They stayed in business? Wasn't there a time when they really weren't. And the current Blue Note. . . and the Blue Note of the last few decades? Is that THE Blue Note?

Edited December 5, 2013 by jazzbo

[Teasing the Korean]

Maybe you're right. All I know is I was buying 50s/60s Blue Note albums in record stores in the late 1970s.

[jazzbo]

Well I guess reissue records . . . it may have been alive as a reissue label, but as far as being "alive" with new recordings, not really for a few decades. Whereas Fantasy was putting out records part of this time.

I don't know the histories all that well so I may be way off.

Edited December 5, 2013 by jazzbo

[marcello]

Maybe you're right. All I know is I was buying 50s/60s Blue Note albums in record stores in the late 1970s.

Don't forget that were no longer a small independent at that time but owned by a large one.

[Teasing the Korean]

Well Liberty owned them, and then UA, but they still continued to function under the Blue Note name and releasing new stuff through at least the mid-70s.

[JSngry]

Well yeah, but Bobbi Humphrey was not Jackie McLean, and Donald Byrd wasn't Donald Byrd...and George Butler sure as hell wasn't Alfred Lion, or even Duke Pearson. And the whole "Reissue Series" & LT issues were more or less stealth operations, very much Cuscuna & Co. trying to get away with as much as they could while they could.

They (all of them) kept the "Blue Note" name alive, and a large-ish portion of the catalog stayed in print because they made a lot of really good records in the first place, more than a few of them iconic that people kept wanting to hear. And with artists like Horace & Herbie & many others, the mega-hits justified keeping the lesser selling items in print, because enough people were curious enough then to say, oh, this Song For My Father thing is really badass, let's see what this Horace-Scope album's all about, etc., or what this new one, You Gotta Take A Little Love, this looks groovy!But as the later CD reissue programs would prove, what stayed in print all those years was not nearly as much as was issued and then went OOP. Even the big names didn't have their entire catalog continuously in print.

So, they make good records that sold well, they build brand recognition, and people wanted to buy the brand when they decided it was time to sell it.

As far as how they stayed in business up until then, hey - they were good businessmen, Lion & Wolff were. They knew their market, how to play to it, and they also knew what might not sell but would still want/need to be heard. They weren't in the business to get rich, but they weren't in it to lose money either, if you know what I mean. Just good business people with exceptionally good taste.

[mjzee]

They also watched their pennies. It was a very slim operation.

[Moko]

Surely the money kept rolling in from abroad, I'm sure the Japanese market alone (120 million people) would have been able to keep it afloat as Jazz on Vinyl is a much more mainstream interest than it ever was in the US or Europe.

[kh1958]

Prestige didn't "go under," it stayed independent a half dozen years longer than Blue Note did, and also continued releasing records after its acquisition by Fantasy.

[Hot Ptah]

I bought many discounted cut out Blue Note LPs in the late 1970s, of the big name's major releases--Blakey, Silver etc. It did not seem to me that they were still in print.

[Leeway]

Economical operation (while still BN), deeper pockets (Liberty/UA) when BN faltered; strong back catalog. All these were mentioned, and I think are valid.

But I was wondering if the introduction of the CD format might have helped BN survive even if nothing more than as an emblem? The CD allowed all that BN back catalog to be reintroduced in CD form and become a cash cow. Then SACD. Then LP again. Downloads. Etc. Etc.

[mjzee]

Liberty/UA, which bought BN from Lion and Wolff, could be accused of a form of mismanagement by promoting the light jazz of Ronnie Foster, Bobbie Humphrey, etc. But they did hire Cuscuna to go through the vaults and release unheard treasures. The big advance occurred when EMI bought Liberty/UA and placed Bruce Lundvall, a longtime industry veteran and dedicated jazz fan, as head of a revived BN. The advent of CDs accelerated the process, and allowed the rerelease of long out-of-print titles.

Let's also credit the Japanese, who kept interest in true jazz alive during the dark days of the mid to late '70's.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Prestige didn't "go under," it stayed independent a half dozen years longer than Blue Note did, and also continued releasing records after its acquisition by Fantasy.

Quite right. Contemporary, too. I don't think Fantasy bought that until the early eighties.

And Fantasy didn't get sold to Concord (O rue the day!!!) until 2004. Chess didn't sell to GRT until the early seventies. Savoy stayed with Lubinsky until he died in the mid-seventies. And as for Delmark....

MG

[sidewinder]

But they did hire Cuscuna to go through the vaults and release unheard treasures.

Let's also credit the Japanese, who kept interest in true jazz alive during the dark days of the mid to late '70's.

Big thanks as well to Charlie Lourie for initiating those 'brown bag' twofers with Mr Cuscuna. Presumably also for liaising with King to make it happen in Japan.

Edited December 5, 2013 by sidewinder

[J.A.W.]

Of all the labels mentioned the only one that really "went under" was Riverside, not long after co-founder Bill Grauer died in December 1963.

[mjzee]

Prestige didn't "go under," it stayed independent a half dozen years longer than Blue Note did, and also continued releasing records after its acquisition by Fantasy.

Quite right. Contemporary, too. I don't think Fantasy bought that until the early eighties.

While Contemporary was sold in the early eighties, their releases became progressively fewer and harder to obtain (especially on the East Coast) in the late '70's.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Prestige didn't "go under," it stayed independent a half dozen years longer than Blue Note did, and also continued releasing records after its acquisition by Fantasy.

Quite right. Contemporary, too. I don't think Fantasy bought that until the early eighties.

While Contemporary was sold in the early eighties, their releases became progressively fewer and harder to obtain (especially on the East Coast) in the late '70's.

Got to admit I didn't pay Contemporary much attention until about 1980, when I started getting deeper into Teddy Edwards.

MG

[Teasing the Korean]

Prestige didn't "go under," it stayed independent a half dozen years longer than Blue Note did, and also continued releasing records after its acquisition by Fantasy.

So I'd always assumed that those Prestige two-fer reissues in the 70s were done after Fantasy owned them, but before the OJC identity had been created. I guess I was mistaken. Thanks for clarifying.

[Chuck Nessa]

Well yeah, but Bobbi Humphrey was not Jackie McLean, and Donald Byrd wasn't Donald Byrd...and George Butler sure as hell wasn't Alfred Lion, or even Duke Pearson. And the whole "Reissue Series" & LT issues were more or less stealth operations, very much Cuscuna & Co. trying to get away with as much as they could while they could.

They (all of them) kept the "Blue Note" name alive, and a large-ish portion of the catalog stayed in print because they made a lot of really good records in the first place, more than a few of them iconic that people kept wanting to hear. And with artists like Horace & Herbie & many others, the mega-hits justified keeping the lesser selling items in print, because enough people were curious enough then to say, oh, this Song For My Father thing is really badass, let's see what this Horace-Scope album's all about, etc., or what this new one, You Gotta Take A Little Love, this looks groovy!But as the later CD reissue programs would prove, what stayed in print all those years was not nearly as much as was issued and then went OOP. Even the big names didn't have their entire catalog continuously in print.

So, they make good records that sold well, they build brand recognition, and people wanted to buy the brand when they decided it was time to sell it.

As far as how they stayed in business up until then, hey - they were good businessmen, Lion & Wolff were. They knew their market, how to play to it, and they also knew what might not sell but would still want/need to be heard. They weren't in the business to get rich, but they weren't in it to lose money either, if you know what I mean. Just good business people with exceptionally good taste.

I see the moderator replaced a better and more thorough message. Bummer. I came here to praise the original message.

[kh1958]

Prestige didn't "go under," it stayed independent a half dozen years longer than Blue Note did, and also continued releasing records after its acquisition by Fantasy.

So I'd always assumed that those Prestige two-fer reissues in the 70s were done after Fantasy owned them, but before the OJC identity had been created. I guess I was mistaken. Thanks for clarifying.

Prestige released the original twofer reissues in the sixties. But most of the Prestige twofers were produced by Fantasy in the Mid to late 1970s. OJCs came after the twofers, if I recall correctly.

[mjzee]

Prestige didn't "go under," it stayed independent a half dozen years longer than Blue Note did, and also continued releasing records after its acquisition by Fantasy.

So I'd always assumed that those Prestige two-fer reissues in the 70s were done after Fantasy owned them, but before the OJC identity had been created. I guess I was mistaken. Thanks for clarifying.

Prestige released the original twofer reissues in the sixties. But most of the Prestige twofers were produced by Fantasy in the Mid to late 1970s. OJCs came after the twofers, if I recall correctly.

Correct. The twofers were $7.98 list; OJCs were $3.98 list.

[kh1958]

The new Fantasy era Prestiges are most of the releases in the 10,000 series.

[JSngry]

The sixties? The 24000 series began in 1972, was there anything of note before then?

Well yeah, but Bobbi Humphrey was not Jackie McLean, and Donald Byrd wasn't Donald Byrd...and George Butler sure as hell wasn't Alfred Lion, or even Duke Pearson. And the whole "Reissue Series" & LT issues were more or less stealth operations, very much Cuscuna & Co. trying to get away with as much as they could while they could.

They (all of them) kept the "Blue Note" name alive, and a large-ish portion of the catalog stayed in print because they made a lot of really good records in the first place, more than a few of them iconic that people kept wanting to hear. And with artists like Horace & Herbie & many others, the mega-hits justified keeping the lesser selling items in print, because enough people were curious enough then to say, oh, this Song For My Father thing is really badass, let's see what this Horace-Scope album's all about, etc., or what this new one, You Gotta Take A Little Love, this looks groovy!But as the later CD reissue programs would prove, what stayed in print all those years was not nearly as much as was issued and then went OOP. Even the big names didn't have their entire catalog continuously in print.

So, they make good records that sold well, they build brand recognition, and people wanted to buy the brand when they decided it was time to sell it.

As far as how they stayed in business up until then, hey - they were good businessmen, Lion & Wolff were. They knew their market, how to play to it, and they also knew what might not sell but would still want/need to be heard. They weren't in the business to get rich, but they weren't in it to lose money either, if you know what I mean. Just good business people with exceptionally good taste.

I see the moderator replaced a better and more thorough message. Bummer. I came here to praise the original message.

Not sure what you mean?

[fasstrack]

Maybe this is common knowledge, but I was thinking about how Fantasy managed to stay in business because of CCR, and all these other labels (Prestige, Riverside, etc.) went under, and everything then became part of OJC.

What did Blue Note do differently that allowed them to stay in business? Obviously, there was very high artistic quality, but there's no direct correlation between artistic merit and sales.

Is there a simple answer, or were several factors involved?

I think the popularity of their artists (i.e. Hancock, Turrentine, especially Silver) was their best investment. Those records sold well years ago and are still selling.