Suggest a Beethoven 7th Symphony Recording

[Teasing the Korean]

My knowledge of Beethoven is limited to Vince Guaraldi and Walter Carlos.

Please suggest a good interpretation/recording of the 7th, preferably from the analog era, and preferably with nice cover art.

[J.A.W.]

Carlos Kleiber with the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra. A reference interpretation of the 7^th, coupled with an equally wonderful version of the 5^th. It's originally an analogue recording.

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphonies-Nos-5-7/dp/B000001GPX/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1385930883&sr=1-1&keywords=kleiber+beethoven+5+7

I don't like the sound on the remaster, but if sound is not an issue, it's an OK disc. However, if sound is important, the hybrid SACD is an excellent alternative:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-Symphonies-Nos-5-7/dp/B00007KMOX/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1385931176&sr=8-1&keywords=kleiber+beethoven+5+7+sacd

Edited December 1, 2013 by J.A.W.

[JSngry]

What is this "reference recording" business? Who decide(s)(d) that?

[J.A.W.]

What is this "reference recording" business? Who decide(s)(d) that?

Seems obvious to me. Is it really necessary to add "in my opinion" every time an opinion is posted? [sigh]

Edited December 1, 2013 by J.A.W.

[porcy62]

Karl Boehm, Vienna Philarmonic Orchestra, DG, IMHO

[JSngry]

I've seen the term "reference recording" bandied about so much, I though it was some sort of "official" thing, like from Penguin or one of those other arbitrary arbitrators that are given so much credence for whatever reason by so many for whatever reason.

So in theory, you could ask 150 people what the "reference recording(s) was(were) for such-and-such a work, get 150 different answers, and it would all be all good, correct?

[porcy62]

Maybe it has to do with some general consensus, beyond personal opinion

[JSngry]

Seriously, I don't know. That's why I'm asking, to learn what I should think when I hear somebody use that term. Because right now, I'm like, ok...reference for what? Like one of those old Calibrate Your Hi-Fi records? Where you could hear a true A-400 & sine wave and all that and then adjust accordingly until you know you're right? Are these Calibrate Your Ears, Mind, & Soul records for classical music, listen to this and get right with classicalmusicgod? Or just what, exactly?

I mean, seriously, I don't know what that term means in general conversation. Not trying to be a wiseguy hear, I really don't know.

[porcy62]

In my view I consider a performance/recording a reference when it conveys some new and interesting aspects of the work, sometimes trough the performance I get a new view of the work, something I never tought before.

When someone stress the playful aspects of Beethoven, I realize that it might be funny, so performance is some sort of everlasting discover.

Edited December 1, 2013 by porcy62

[Larry Kart]

A "reference recording" is a recording that conveys as fully as possible -- in the opinion of one person at the least, in the opinions of a good many supposedly knowledgable people at best -- how a particular work should go, i.e. a recording that other recordings of that work can and should be measured against. The term, I think, was popularized (perhaps even originated) by writers at the British classical music magazine The Gramophone, which was founded in 1923.

Of course, what turns out to be your reference recording for any work (should you wish to entertain the arguably rather stuffy-prissy concept) is up to you, but I think it's safe to say that you shouldn't throw the term around unless and until you've heard a fair number of recordings of that work. In the Beethoven 7th sweepstakes, Carlos Kleiber's recording (Hans' choice) is regarded as a strong candidate by many. I also like Eugen Jochum's DGG recording from the 1950s, not (or not so much) his later ones on Philips and EMI.

[J.A.W.]

Another recording I like very much is the one by Carlos Kleiber's father, Erich Kleiber, with the Concertgebouw Orchestra Amsterdam. It's a mono recording made in 1950.

Other favourites of mine from the 1950s and 1960s: Guido Cantelli with the Philharmonia Orchestra London, Otto Klemperer with the same orchestra, and George Szell with the Cleveland Orchestra. These are traditional, "old-style" interpretations, but very good ones in my opinion ( )

Most HIP ("Historically Informed Performance" on period instruments) versions are recorded digitally, so I guess you're not interested in those.

Edited December 2, 2013 by J.A.W.

[bogdan101]

Also try Furtwangler and Mengelberg; happily with youtube these days you can actually try before you buy.

[J.A.W.]

Also try Furtwangler and Mengelberg; happily with youtube these days you can actually try before you buy.

Furtwängler and especially Mengelberg are an acquired taste for many and I'm not sure they are the best to start with if, like the original poster, you don't know anything about Beethoven's symphonies.

[JSngry]

A "reference recording" is a recording that conveys as fully as possible -- in the opinion of one person at the least, in the opinions of a good many supposedly knowledgable people at best -- how a particular work should go, i.e. a recording that other recordings of that work can and should be measured against. The term, I think, was popularized (perhaps even originated) by writers at the British classical music magazine The Gramophone, which was founded in 1923.

Of course, what turns out to be your reference recording for any work (should you wish to entertain the arguably rather stuffy-prissy concept) is up to you, but I think it's safe to say that you shouldn't throw the term around unless and until you've heard a fair number of recordings of that work. In the Beethoven 7th sweepstakes, Carlos Kleiber's recording (Hans' choice) is regarded as a strong candidate by many. I also like Eugen Jochum's DGG recording from the 1950s, not (or not so much) his later ones on Philips and EMI.

Ok, so it's just another form of "essential" then, a concept both useful and useless concept, not any kind of "official designation" or anything.

Thanks for clarifying that for me. I really wasn't sure what it was supposed to mean.

Also try Furtwangler and Mengelberg; happily with youtube these days you can actually try before you buy.

Furtwängler and especially Mengelberg are an acquired taste for many and I'm not sure they are the best to start with if, like the original poster, you don't know anything about Beethoven's symphonies.

What's so odd about Furtwangler? Great time, he has, not stiff at all.

[Teasing the Korean]

Most HIP ("Historically Informed Performance" on period instruments) versions are recorded digitally, so I guess you're not interested in those.

My preference is analog recordings, but I'm hep to hip digital recordings, if they're done by hip orchestras and hip conductors!

Ok, so it's just another form of "essential" then, a concept both useful and useless concept, not any kind of "official designation" or anything.

Thanks for clarifying that for me. I really wasn't sure what it was supposed to mean.

JSngry, I get where you're coming from, but considering the numbers of available interpretations of certain titles, this kind of input is helpful.

[bogdan101]

Also try Furtwangler and Mengelberg; happily with youtube these days you can actually try before you buy.

Furtwängler and especially Mengelberg are an acquired taste for many and I'm not sure they are the best to start with if, like the original poster, you don't know anything about Beethoven's symphonies.

The lack of exposure in this case might help; someone who doesn't know what Beethoven's 7 "should sound like" will listen with an open mind. In any case, I believe it's worth spending a few minutes on the tube to find out.

[J.A.W.]

Also try Furtwangler and Mengelberg; happily with youtube these days you can actually try before you buy.

Furtwängler and especially Mengelberg are an acquired taste for many and I'm not sure they are the best to start with if, like the original poster, you don't know anything about Beethoven's symphonies.

The lack of exposure in this case might help; someone who doesn't know what Beethoven's 7 "should sound like" will listen with an open mind. In any case, I believe it's worth spending a few minutes on the tube to find out.

That goes for all recommendations.

[JSngry]

Ok, so it's just another form of "essential" then, a concept both useful and useless concept, not any kind of "official designation" or anything.

Thanks for clarifying that for me. I really wasn't sure what it was supposed to mean.

JSngry, I get where you're coming from, but considering the numbers of available interpretations of certain titles, this kind of input is helpful.

Well, yes it is, that's why I said both useful and useless. Useful because, yes, consensus (knowledgeable and open-minded, at least) is indeed a good thing. A great thing, actually. Useless, because, hey, some people just follow the crowd, hear what they think they're supposed to hear, and then join the chorus, figuring that if this is right, then I can't be wrong. And then the chorus grows until somebody starts a new one.

But yes, when I can tell somebody knows, really knows, their shit and isn't just posing and/or bullshitting, I want their opinion (and will go out my way to ask for it). Definitely. I don't know that I myself would use the term "reference recording" (if there's only one, or just a few ways a piece "should" go, then why bother either listening or playing any further? Points for trying? Celebrating failure as triumphant life lesson?)), but oh well. At least now when somebody does, I'll get what they mean (although, as a compliment to the people I do ask, not once have they themselves used that term!).

[J.A.W.]

Most HIP ("Historically Informed Performance" on period instruments) versions are recorded digitally, so I guess you're not interested in those.

My preference is analog recordings, but I'm hep to hip digital recordings, if they're done by hip orchestras and hip conductors!

HIP performances I'd recommend: John Eliot Gardiner with the Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique, Frans Brüggen with the Orchestra of the 18^th Century (the earlier set, not the recent one), Christopher Hogwood with the Academy of Ancient Music, and a really adventurous one by Jos van Immerseel with Anima Eterna Brugge (Bruges).

Edited December 2, 2013 by J.A.W.

[Chuck Nessa]

No one has mentioned my favorite, the Toscanini recording with the NYPSO in a recording from 1936. In my opinion, and a few others, the first 4 minutes of the first movement as originally approved by Toscanini are preferable to the faster substitution made for later RCA pressings and RCA has continued with the substitution for ever. Pearl issued a nice set of Victor's Toscanini / NYPSO recordings a few years ago with the original side and regrettably I can't locate my copy at the moment.

Bev must be going nuts searching for the Pearl issue.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Chuck Nessa

[Larry Kart]

A "reference recording" is a recording that conveys as fully as possible -- in the opinion of one person at the least, in the opinions of a good many supposedly knowledgable people at best -- how a particular work should go, i.e. a recording that other recordings of that work can and should be measured against. The term, I think, was popularized (perhaps even originated) by writers at the British classical music magazine The Gramophone, which was founded in 1923.

Of course, what turns out to be your reference recording for any work (should you wish to entertain the arguably rather stuffy-prissy concept) is up to you, but I think it's safe to say that you shouldn't throw the term around unless and until you've heard a fair number of recordings of that work. In the Beethoven 7th sweepstakes, Carlos Kleiber's recording (Hans' choice) is regarded as a strong candidate by many. I also like Eugen Jochum's DGG recording from the 1950s, not (or not so much) his later ones on Philips and EMI.

Ok, so it's just another form of "essential" then, a concept both useful and useless concept, not any kind of "official designation" or anything.

Thanks for clarifying that for me. I really wasn't sure what it was supposed to mean.

Also try Furtwangler and Mengelberg; happily with youtube these days you can actually try before you buy.

Furtwängler and especially Mengelberg are an acquired taste for many and I'm not sure they are the best to start with if, like the original poster, you don't know anything about Beethoven's symphonies.

What's so odd about Furtwangler? Great time, he has, not stiff at all.

Who said that Furtwangler's time was stiff? The complaint (for those who complain -- certainly not me) would be pretty much the opposite, that his phrasing was too free and plastic.

[Spontooneous]

Second Chuck's recommendation.

Also, Pierre Monteux on Decca in very nice early stereo.

Nobody's taken on the textual question: Are the last notes of the second movement plucked or bowed? The Kleibers (dad Erich and son Carlos) are in the plucking minority here.

[JSngry]

A "reference recording" is a recording that conveys as fully as possible -- in the opinion of one person at the least, in the opinions of a good many supposedly knowledgable people at best -- how a particular work should go, i.e. a recording that other recordings of that work can and should be measured against. The term, I think, was popularized (perhaps even originated) by writers at the British classical music magazine The Gramophone, which was founded in 1923.

Of course, what turns out to be your reference recording for any work (should you wish to entertain the arguably rather stuffy-prissy concept) is up to you, but I think it's safe to say that you shouldn't throw the term around unless and until you've heard a fair number of recordings of that work. In the Beethoven 7th sweepstakes, Carlos Kleiber's recording (Hans' choice) is regarded as a strong candidate by many. I also like Eugen Jochum's DGG recording from the 1950s, not (or not so much) his later ones on Philips and EMI.

Ok, so it's just another form of "essential" then, a concept both useful and useless concept, not any kind of "official designation" or anything.

Thanks for clarifying that for me. I really wasn't sure what it was supposed to mean.

Also try Furtwangler and Mengelberg; happily with youtube these days you can actually try before you buy.

Furtwängler and especially Mengelberg are an acquired taste for many and I'm not sure they are the best to start with if, like the original poster, you don't know anything about Beethoven's symphonies.

What's so odd about Furtwangler? Great time, he has, not stiff at all.

Who said that Furtwangler's time was stiff? The complaint (for those who complain -- certainly not me) would be pretty much the opposite, that his phrasing was too free and plastic.

Nobody said that it was stiff. I find his fluidity delightful and many others "stiff" by comparison. That's why I don't understand the complaints (well, I do, but I am not sympathetic to them) or why he would be an "acquired taste". It's the "less fluid" world that would, for me, take some getting used to, especially having only lived in a post-Armstrong rhythmic world. I mean, we're not talking bad/weak time to be getting upset about here, we're talking, as you say, free and plastic. I've never once heard him be spazzy or grotesque with it, just...spontaneous. And always landed after taking off.

[J.A.W.]

No one has mentioned my favorite, the Toscanini recording with the NYPSO in a recording from 1936. In my opinion, and a few others, the first 4 minutes of the first movement as originally approved by Toscanini are preferable to the faster substitution made for later RCA pressings and RCA has continued with the substitution for ever. Pearl issued a nice set of Victor's Toscanini / NYPSO recordings a few years ago with the original side and regrettably I can't locate my copy at the moment.

Bev must be going nuts searching for the Pearl issue.

I have the 1936 Toscanini on Naxos, but I have no idea which version of the first movement they used.

[edit]

Just checked and Naxos used both takes. Timings: first take 11:49, second take 11:26.

Mark Obert-Thorn did the transfers and mastering.

http://www.amazon.com/Sym-5-7-Beethoven/dp/B00005MFGQ/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1385981492&sr=1-2&keywords=toscanini+beethoven+naxos

Edited December 2, 2013 by J.A.W.

[David Ayers]

This really *is* one for spotters, I'll chip in predictably. While I dislike the 'reference recording' idea - which has a generational centre of gravity - I'll agree that Kleiber is a good place to start, or Klemperer on EMI in (shock of shocks) mono.