Brits take a crack at US geography

[J.A.W.]

We have a kingdom for exactly 200 years now, celebrations started this week.

That's not quite correct. The Netherlands became a kingdom in 1806, with Napoléon's brother Louis Napoléon Bonaparte as king. In 1810 the country was annexed by Napoléon and became part of the French empire. After Napoléon's first defeat in 1813 the Netherlands became a principality, not a kingdom (again) - that didn't happen until 1815 when Willem I became king, so all these celebrations are either too late or premature, depending on the way you look at it.

Edited December 4, 2013 by J.A.W.

[erwbol]

So technically there is still time to become a republic again before 200 years in thrall to that family.

[J.A.W.]

Yep. Part of what is now the Netherlands - roughly the current country without the province of Limburg and part of Brabant - was a republic from the Declaration of Independence ("Plakkaat van Verlatinghe") in 1581 until 1806.

British historian Jonathan I. Israel wrote a brilliant book about it: The Dutch Republic - Its Rise, Greatness, and Fall 1477-1806 (1995, Oxford University Press).

Edited December 4, 2013 by J.A.W.

[page]

Well, yeah I know, I was just trying to keep it short.

[A Lark Ascending]

Now, what about Jan Van Oldenbarnevelt and the De Witte Brothers? And stadtholders? It's all coming back.

I think you mean Johan.

Think it got mistranslated as Jan over here. Just checked one of my old 17thC history text books and it definitely says Jan.

There's a great name for a rock'n roll band there - Jan van Oldenbarnevelt and the Stadtholders.

Though I always liked the idea of a Czech punk band calling itself The Defenestrators.

Edited December 4, 2013 by A Lark Ascending

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Now, what about Jan Van Oldenbarnevelt and the De Witte Brothers? And stadtholders? It's all coming back.

I think you mean Johan.

Think it got mistranslated as Jan over here. Just checked one of my old 17thC history text books and it definitely says Jan.

There's a great name for a rock'n roll band there - Jan van Oldenbarnevelt and the Stadtholders.

Though I always liked the idea of a Czech punk band calling itself The Defenestrators.

Sorry Bev - there's a SCOTTISH band called the Defenestrators. They seem to get a gig or two every month.

here's their website

I can't do a control v....

MG

[A Lark Ascending]

What's defenestration got to do with Scotland? Are they claiming that as well as all the oil?

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Dunno. I thought there'd be a Welsh band of that name, because window in Welsh is 'fenster', same as German.

Still can't do a control v.

MG

[erwbol]

Edited December 4, 2013 by erwbol

[etherbored]

well, all this has fired my curiosity about nederlander geography. i didn't realize that friesland (or fryslân) was one of twelve provinces to have its own language. so now i'm reading up on each province and what the primary characteristics of each may be. fascinating.

Edited December 4, 2013 by etherbored

[page]

Now, what about Jan Van Oldenbarnevelt and the De Witte Brothers? And stadtholders? It's all coming back.

I think you mean Johan.

Think it got mistranslated as Jan over here. Just checked one of my old 17thC history text books and it definitely says Jan.

There's a great name for a rock'n roll band there - Jan van Oldenbarnevelt and the Stadtholders.

Though I always liked the idea of a Czech punk band calling itself The Defenestrators.

It is "Johan" which probably comes from "Johannes" and could be shortened as well as "Hans". It is still a name that is been used.

Yes, great name. I would name the sidemen "de Stadhouders" in that case. I once was part in a band that was called "Lemon juice vs the Radicals" if I would translate it. Some rock'n roll but also rock, before you ask.

I will have to look up that last name, since I have no clue what it means.

[page]

well, all this has fired my curiosity about nederlander geography. i didn't realize that friesland (or fryslân) was one of twelve provinces to have its own language. so now i'm reading up on each province and what the primary characteristics of each may be. fascinating.

Really? That's nice. Not eveyone would call it a language, more a dialect. We have quite a few of those. On another forum I wrote about the different ways the "r" can be pronounced. This is due to geografics but also to social influence. I find these things fun to learn and get to know about.

[etherbored]

Really? That's nice. Not eveyone would call it a language, more a dialect. We have quite a few of those. On another forum I wrote about the different ways the "r" can be pronounced. This is due to geografics but also to social influence. I find these things fun to learn and get to know about.

i thought so! what i've read in english refers to them as languages, but i was certain they would be more dialects. i also find these things fun to learn and know about. for instance, i'm positive that each region and province has its own characteristics that differ - some greatly - and some subtly. and what a more neglected place to start than the netherlands!

[J.A.W.]

Really? That's nice. Not eveyone would call it a language, more a dialect. We have quite a few of those. On another forum I wrote about the different ways the "r" can be pronounced. This is due to geografics but also to social influence. I find these things fun to learn and get to know about.

i thought so! what i've read in english refers to them as languages, but i was certain they would be more dialects. i also find these things fun to learn and know about. for instance, i'm positive that each region and province has its own characteristics that differ - some greatly - and some subtly. and what a more neglected place to start than the netherlands!

Frisian is officially recognised as a language, with its own grammar etc.

[Cyril]

well, all this has fired my curiosity about nederlander geography. i didn't realize that friesland (or fryslân) was one of twelve provinces to have its own language. so now i'm reading up on each province and what the primary characteristics of each may be. fascinating.

Really? That's nice. Not eveyone would call it a language, more a dialect.

That's not correct. It's 'Fries' for the Frisian language and Westfries for the Dutch dialect.

[J.A.W.]

well, all this has fired my curiosity about nederlander geography. i didn't realize that friesland (or fryslân) was one of twelve provinces to have its own language. so now i'm reading up on each province and what the primary characteristics of each may be. fascinating.

Really? That's nice. Not eveyone would call it a language, more a dialect.

That's not correct. It's 'Fries' for the Frisian language and Westfries for the Dutch dialect.

Westfries is spoken in the northern part of the province of North Holland, which was inhabited by Frisians in the early Middle Ages, before the great floods separated what is now North Holland from Friesland. Westfries is indeed a dialect, while Frisian (Fries) is a language - see my earlier post about that.

Edited December 4, 2013 by J.A.W.

[Cyril]

well, all this has fired my curiosity about nederlander geography. i didn't realize that friesland (or fryslân) was one of twelve provinces to have its own language. so now i'm reading up on each province and what the primary characteristics of each may be. fascinating.

Really? That's nice. Not eveyone would call it a language, more a dialect.

That's not correct. It's 'Fries' for the Frisian language and Westfries for the Dutch dialect.

Westfries is spoken in the northern part of the province of North Holland, which was inhabited by Frisians in the early Middle Ages, before the great floods separated what is now North Holland from Friesland. Westfries is indeed a dialect, while Frisian (Fries) is a language - see my earlier post about that.

Right. But my answer was about that 'dialect'....

[J.A.W.]

well, all this has fired my curiosity about nederlander geography. i didn't realize that friesland (or fryslân) was one of twelve provinces to have its own language. so now i'm reading up on each province and what the primary characteristics of each may be. fascinating.

Really? That's nice. Not eveyone would call it a language, more a dialect.

That's not correct. It's 'Fries' for the Frisian language and Westfries for the Dutch dialect.

Westfries is spoken in the northern part of the province of North Holland, which was inhabited by Frisians in the early Middle Ages, before the great floods separated what is now North Holland from Friesland. Westfries is indeed a dialect, while Frisian (Fries) is a language - see my earlier post about that.

Right. But my answer was about that 'dialect'....

I know, my post was just meant as an addition to what you said, not a correction People who claim that Frisian is a mere dialect have got it wrong.

Edited December 4, 2013 by J.A.W.

[sidewinder]

I know, my post was just meant as an addition to what you said, not a correction People who claim that Frisian is a mere dialect have got it wron

Isn't that language pretty close to old medieval English? If so, interesting how that must have happened - the influence of the old Danelaw perhaps.

Edited December 5, 2013 by sidewinder

[BillF]

I know, my post was just meant as an addition to what you said, not a correction People who claim that Frisian is a mere dialect have got it wron

Isn't that language pretty close to old medieval English? If so, interesting how that must have happened - the influence of the old Danelaw perhaps.

Wasn't it because of the invasion of Angles, Saxons, Jutes (and Frisians), i.e. the English from around 500 A.D?

Edited December 5, 2013 by BillF

[sidewinder]

Bill - yes, I think you are right. Of course, those incomers from across the North Sea settled in the old Danelaw territories (i.e. roughly anything East of the A5 road) and the 'locals' headed West. Explains a lot, even to this day.

Edited December 5, 2013 by sidewinder

[page]

Well, I'm sorry for getting into this. I just expressed a feeling and that was what I said when you read my reply, didn't mean to offend anyone or state a fact. I have a natural love for language ánd dialects, so my reaction was just spontaneous. Etherbored, I think that too about regions, It is fun to discover things about a language that way.

[etherbored]

regardless of the dialect versus language distinction, is it possible for two nederlanders to not understand each other due to not speaking a shared language or are the differences more subtle?

[skeith]

But the larger question is are any Brits taking crack other than Nigella Lawson?

[etherbored]

sorry - don't understand that dialect...