Stanley Crouch Parker biography reviewed

[AllenLowe]

WIld Bill was, as Chuck says, always defensive because of his reputation - but the accident wasn't his fault.

btw, serious about selling my Crouch/Bird book.

[ArtSalt]

Very Interesting, but I challenge The Dulouz Legend as fiction, it is autobiographical, the interior world of Kerouac; bebop prosody, Old Grandad laced with benzedrine.

Did I mention The Dulouz Legend? In any case, it's commonly regarded as semi-autobiographical.

No, it was me who mentioned it, but I think this is important as Kerouac himself perceived his works as all comprising one mythic autobiography. Jazz is of course essential throughout, but as the quintessential beat-jazz-poet, even though he was the grandaddy of them all, I am always left with the thought of what could have been if Kerouac had stayed sober. I think Kerouac tells us more about the literature of alcoholism, repressed sexuality and a chronic and sad (rapid) descent from genius to mediocrity than it does about jazz poetics.

I have mixed feelings about Kerouac's poetry and some of the extra tracks on the Rhino box-set of his poetry, reveal his goofy drunkeness in full flow, sad and pitiful.

Thanks to AllenLowe for the correction in spelling.....

Emphasis on the "mythic." Don't think you can take any Kerouac text as being that much closer to the autobiographical truth than any other. Can't imagine what a Kerouac who stayed sober might have been like or even that that would have been possible. Of all the people who need to be taken all of a piece, he would seem to be it.

Agree totally, with Kerouac its very much the whole oeuvre, which is exactly the way he created it to be.

[JSngry]

Ok, I finally decided to push ahead and read this sucker. Began yesterday during what was hoped to be a long, leisurely late-afternoon bowel movement. Read the Prelude and was thinking, hey, this is pretty damn good, I'm gonna like this!

Then, literally three pages later, I was thinking, OMFG, what happened, this is NOT good. I mean, it took the Hindenburg longer to blow up than it did those pages. Thus ended the bowel movement, dammit.

Will finish the book, but fully expect to have the same type of wildly erratic quality swings all the way. Paging Herbert Morrison!

[paul secor]

When you finish reading the book, perhaps you can find another use for the pages.

[JSngry]

That Prelude was borderline beautiful, actually..

[paul secor]

That Prelude was borderline beautiful, actually..

OK - Save that and make use of the rest.

[JSngry]

Haven't made it to page 30 yet...it's just too hard to sit down with this thing and stay down with it. But it's not so much that it's "bad", I have to say that as far as overall "tone" and "atmosphere", I'm getting it, Crouch is definitely sending a vibe, and it's easily picked up on and carried through with.

But GOOD GOD, I think I just read a sentence, a single sentence, and not a long one, that started out soaring and had crashed and burned a full five miles away from the period. Now, that's part of the atmosphere, the attitude, but if I wanted to hang out with some cats and soak up the mojo of the being-on-reported upon world, I would do so (and in fact, have, in my own provincial opportunities way), not sit down and read a book trying go replicate what it felt like, sumbitches and all that, and if I did, I know that the conversation would ramble and drift and go from sublime to stoopid without any warning, but that's what a hang is for, not a book. You want to live a hang and read a book, not the other way around.

Still, in spite of all that, I get what Crouch is up to here, and so far I'm not in any dyspeptic about it, yet. But it's not because he's such a damn fine writer (he's a talker, that's what he is), it's because I already understand his basic lexicon and don't have to translate it into regular wordage. But woe do I pity those who do, and really, was THIS the way to do THIS?

[flat5]

I have a pdf of the book and am reading it in 30-45 minute bouts. It makes me tired and my mind drifts.

I will make it to the end. After all, the book is about Bird (allegedly). Chapter 6 as of yesterday.

[AllenLowe]

still selling mine; look, I'll play 20 bucks plus overnight Fedex shipping if someone takes it off my hands.

[flat5]

Finished the book today. Glad I read it. I 'know' a little more about Bird and his times.

[sgcim]

I don't know why anyone would want to read anything an ignoramus such as Crouch would have to say about jazz,

Here's something I found that he had to say about Bill Evans:

"As far as Bill Evans is concerned, readers should note that Stanley Crouch, Marsalis' admitted mentor, is responsible for serious negative attacks on the pianist, as noted by jazz writer Eric Nisenson: "I once overheard [the jazz critic] Stanley Crouch giving a diatribe against Evans. It was just before a kind of symposium of jazz critics.... Evans, according to Crouch, was a 'punk' whose playing could scarcely be considered jazz. He could not swing, according to Crouch, and there was no blues in his playing." (11) These are simply inaccurate and dirisive remarks, especially since musicians as diverse as Miles Davis, Ahmad Jamal, Oscar Peterson, Cannonball Adderley and scores of others clearly disagreed. That Evans considered the blues a limited harmonic structure for his own purposes, and only rarely used it as a vehicle for blowing, is a given. That the often blues-based solos of Monk, Bud Powell, Horace Silver and others were, as he himself noted, a big factor in Evans' own pianistic development is also a given. That all of this ought to somehow diminish his brilliant artistry and widespread influence is just plain silly and inexcusable. For proof, just open any decent jazz history book."

[flat5]

Crouch interviewed a LOT of people who knew Bird. Although edited, what they had to say is in the book.

[ArtSalt]

I don't know why anyone would want to read anything an ignoramus such as Crouch would have to say about jazz,

Here's something I found that he had to say about Bill Evans:

"As far as Bill Evans is concerned, readers should note that Stanley Crouch, Marsalis' admitted mentor, is responsible for serious negative attacks on the pianist, as noted by jazz writer Eric Nisenson: "I once overheard [the jazz critic] Stanley Crouch giving a diatribe against Evans. It was just before a kind of symposium of jazz critics.... Evans, according to Crouch, was a 'punk' whose playing could scarcely be considered jazz. He could not swing, according to Crouch, and there was no blues in his playing." (11) These are simply inaccurate and dirisive remarks, especially since musicians as diverse as Miles Davis, Ahmad Jamal, Oscar Peterson, Cannonball Adderley and scores of others clearly disagreed. That Evans considered the blues a limited harmonic structure for his own purposes, and only rarely used it as a vehicle for blowing, is a given. That the often blues-based solos of Monk, Bud Powell, Horace Silver and others were, as he himself noted, a big factor in Evans' own pianistic development is also a given. That all of this ought to somehow diminish his brilliant artistry and widespread influence is just plain silly and inexcusable. For proof, just open any decent jazz history book."

That's anecdotal evidence, has he made it his position in print or in recorded interviews?

[sgcim]

I don't know why anyone would want to read anything an ignoramus such as Crouch would have to say about jazz,

Here's something I found that he had to say about Bill Evans:

"As far as Bill Evans is concerned, readers should note that Stanley Crouch, Marsalis' admitted mentor, is responsible for serious negative attacks on the pianist, as noted by jazz writer Eric Nisenson: "I once overheard [the jazz critic] Stanley Crouch giving a diatribe against Evans. It was just before a kind of symposium of jazz critics.... Evans, according to Crouch, was a 'punk' whose playing could scarcely be considered jazz. He could not swing, according to Crouch, and there was no blues in his playing." (11) These are simply inaccurate and dirisive remarks, especially since musicians as diverse as Miles Davis, Ahmad Jamal, Oscar Peterson, Cannonball Adderley and scores of others clearly disagreed. That Evans considered the blues a limited harmonic structure for his own purposes, and only rarely used it as a vehicle for blowing, is a given. That the often blues-based solos of Monk, Bud Powell, Horace Silver and others were, as he himself noted, a big factor in Evans' own pianistic development is also a given. That all of this ought to somehow diminish his brilliant artistry and widespread influence is just plain silly and inexcusable. For proof, just open any decent jazz history book."

That's anecdotal evidence, has he made it his position in print or in recorded interviews?

See Commentary Magazine, Jan. 1998. "Does Bill Evans Swing" by Terry Teachout.

Edited March 26, 2014 by sgcim

[gmonahan]

I didn't know that about Crouch on Bill Evans, but I'm not too surprised. I found myself wondering whether Crouch's low opinion of Evans played at least some role in the decision of Burns to ignore the great pianist in his (much discussed here in other threads!) documentary.

gregmo

[JSngry]

I'm just getting into the second chapter, where the Asians & Africans have turned into Native-American-ish Buffalo soldiers and there's gunfights all over The Wild West, so it's really too soon to tell, but at this point, I think I'm going to like the overall "mood" of this book, even if the particulars, especially "style", end up going into The Unabridgered Webster's Dictionary as Exhibit 1A1 for WTF????

As for Bill Evans, if it's Against The Jazz Law to have any number of reservations about him overall, then call me Dr. Richard Kimball, because I AM The Fugitive. And if it's against the law, period, to be an asshole, then call me whoever's feet "Careless Whisper" is about, because I, too, am guilty.

Jut don't call me Stanley Crouch, because I do all this shit on purpose, at least the part of it that I know about. Stanley...not so sure.

[sgcim]

I didn't know that about Crouch on Bill Evans, but I'm not too surprised. I found myself wondering whether Crouch's low opinion of Evans played at least some role in the decision of Burns to ignore the great pianist in his (much discussed here in other threads!) documentary.

gregmo

I don't think there's any doubt about that. Here's a quote from an article about it I found online:

"Just how did Ken Burns treat the enormous importance of Bill Evans to jazz history in his 19-hour presentation? In less than about 90 seconds, and only within the context of a section from Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue", the best selling jazz album of all time. The narration mentions Evans only inside a black-and-white narrative framework of Miles being colorblind when it came to the music. As "All Blues" played in the background, veteran critic Nat Hentoff, who was a friend of Miles, commented on how Evans' employment in the band came at a time when blacks were wary as to whether a white guy "could even play the music", and also of West-Coast jazz (played mostly by whites). Burns' film at least had the decency to add that Miles liked Evans' quiet fire" and "cascading waterfalls" piano sound, but after this brief mention of Evans on perhaps jazz' greatest album, the pianist is gone for good."

[Larry Kart]

I'm just getting into the second chapter, where the Asians & Africans have turned into Native-American-ish Buffalo soldiers and there's gunfights all over The Wild West, so it's really too soon to tell, but at this point, I think I'm going to like the overall "mood" of this book, even if the particulars, especially "style", end up going into The Unabridgered Webster's Dictionary as Exhibit 1A1 for WTF????

As for Bill Evans, if it's Against The Jazz Law to have any number of reservations about him overall, then call me Dr. Richard Kimball, because I AM The Fugitive. And if it's against the law, period, to be an asshole, then call me whoever's feet "Careless Whisper" is about, because I, too, am guilty.

Jut don't call me Stanley Crouch, because I do all this shit on purpose, at least the part of it that I know about. Stanley...not so sure.

I have major reservations about Evans -- expressed at perhaps tedious length in my book -- but they don't have to do with his supposed inability to swing or his lack of bluesiness, coded phrases so it would seem for him being of Caucasian descent. Swing he certainly did IMO, and while bluesiness was not his thing very often, he did have a vein to mine in that realm. My complaint (in brief) is that Evans's playing became rather formulaic after Scott LaFaro died and that his taste for upping the sophistication level of show-tune-type harmonies ("romanticism handled with discipline is the most beautiful kind of beauty," he said) was rather creepy in terms of emotional expression and a kind of musical dead end.

[JSngry]

Yeah, the more Bill Evans "played like a white guy" (quotes intentional and intent-ional) the more stale/boring/creepy/just WRONG I found him, and the less I liked him, because, hey, creepiness is not inherently "whiteness", I beg to differ, Mr. Crouch (and Mr. Evans, Bill, damn sure not Gil, salt AND Peppers Adams & Art not Warne out, to be clear, our love is here to PLAY those songs of love they're writing and/but knots for ME). Then again, up until then, whoa, look out, that was some deep shit, coming out, not yet being stepped in/on.

But hell, fuck Stanley Crouch and for damn sure fuck all that limited-ness. But this book - and this book alone - is tickling me for reasons that have nothing to do with THAT, perhaps not unlike Wagner tickles me, although I don't know that I'd pay for a box set of Stanley Crouch, in fact, no I don't think I would.

And like I said, I'm just getting into Chapter Two. By the end, that tickle might get annoying, as tickles often do when prolonged for too long the length. But then again, I'm only getting to Chapter 2 after, what, 1-2 weeks, and what is pacing if not timing, and in life and in engines, (and vice-versa) timing is everything.

[medjuck]

I once heard a an editor of a jazz magazine put down Evans by saying that he played in a style he didn't like but if he had to listen to it he'd rather listen to Chick Corea. I couldn't see what they had in common except that they were both white.

I'm not nuts about all of Evans's post LaFaro music either. (Saw him a couple of times with Gary Peacock and was sort of bored though I also saw him record a CBC-TV program with Eddie Gomez that was terrific-- unfortunately it does not seem to be in the CBC archives.) However, imagine if the first Bill Evans we ever heard was one of those lesser later records. It would probably seem like magic.

[Teasing the Korean]

I'm fine with someone not liking Bill Evans, but Crouch's reasoning is flawed. I think Bill Evans could swing. As far as there not being enough blues in his playing, big deal. There is no shortage of blues-based players in jazz, rock, blues, R&B, and who knows how many other genres. So if it's blues you want, throw a rock and you will probably hit someone who can play the blues. I don't need or expect to hear blues when I listen to Bill Evans.

[flat5]

I love Bill Evan's blues playing on 'Jazz at the Plaza'.

It reminds me of Teddy Wilson's 1938 solo on 'Sing, Sing, Sing'.

A breath of fresh air after all the huffing & puffing before it :-)

Logical, concise, beautiful, very swinging, and original.

[AllenLowe]

best Evans work, IMHO:

1)with Mingus (East Coasting, I think it was);

2) at the Half Note with Konitz/Marsh;

3) his first album (1956?); (brilliant adaptation of some of Tristano's ideas)

4) with George Russell;

5) with Cannonball on that Riverside, whatever it was called (maybe Know what I Mean?)

6) and the time I heard him in his living room playing Stars Fell on Alabama; away from audiences, recording studios, nothing to prove. Though I agree with some of Larry's points, I think he was a great pianist.

Edited March 27, 2014 by AllenLowe

[skeith]

And wtf does Crouch mean by calling Evans a "punk"?

[AllenLowe]

that's macho-stupid (or mucho-stupid) Crouch talk for people he'd like to sodomize.

and btw, I do believe that Crouch expressed similar sentiments toward Gil Evans; unless he was confusing the two. But as far as I know, he never said anything bad about Phil Evans, Will Evans, Millie Evans, Dill Evans, or Evan Evans (Bill's son).

Edited March 27, 2014 by AllenLowe