Stanley Crouch Parker biography reviewed

[flat5]

I've had a similar experience, fasstrack.

[fasstrack]

What, pray tell, was it?

[flat5]

I was in a town in Belgium and the hotel was in or near an Orthodox Jewish community. Dreadlocks & black hats everywhere :-)

My mother was sick and I thought I'd go to a synagogue and say a prayer.

I asked a likely fellow where to go. He was suspicious but walked with me to a simple storefront building that did not advertise what it was. While we walked he asked me if I had children and why not. When I went in people looked at me suspiciously but left me alone.

I tried to pray (new for me) and then left after the rabbi stopped talking (in a language I do not understand).

I had not been in a synagogue since I was a child.

You asked. Others have asked why I do not have children too. Apparently not one of my talents.

[AllenLowe]

"Do you think the Jewish community 'didn't' exploit Black American communities back in the day? Or if they did, has there ever been any formal or civic acknowledgement of this from Jewish leaders in the forms of apologies or even simple recognition."

the idea that "the Jews" owe "the blacks" an apology is simple minded and silly beyond belief. Some exploit, some help, just like all white people. Some do both, like Sid Nathan. BTW, one of the reasons the Jews did well in the music biz is that they tend to lack the xeonophobia that often prevented white people from dealing with African Americans.

"Another question might be, did Jewish communities buy into the White Suprematism of the US as well in their interactions or integrations with Black communities.
And surely these issues must have had a significant effect on Jewish relations with Black American music, or to put it more ecumenically American music? "

some did some didn't, but certainly the record of Jews in Civil Rights and other forms of progressive advocacy speaks for itself.

Edited December 3, 2013 by AllenLowe

[flat5]

Valid points.

[Face of the Bass]

Again, I'd really encourage people to read Family Properties, which deals directly with this stuff. You know, actual research, as opposed to people just pulling stuff out of their asses.

http://www.amazon.com/Family-Properties-Struggle-Transformed-Chicago/dp/0805091424

[ValerieB]

and to think that I used to have a lot of respect for Cornell West!! and my respect for Tavis Smiley is withering slowly. they're both still very intelligent and articulate men but, boy, do they ever have their messed-up issues!!

[erwbol]

Thank you for that link Face of the Bass. I placed an order Family Properties just now.

[Face of the Bass]

Thank you for that link Face of the Bass. I placed an order Family Properties just now.

Be very interested to hear your thoughts when you get around to reading it. I assigned it in my US History course this past semester.

[AllenLowe]

there's a lot of good stuff in my ass.

[robertoart]

there's a lot of good stuff in my ass.

There's a lot to be said for constipation in some instances.

[king ubu]

To stick to the charming imagery here, there's also some oral diarrhea going on ... but that books sounds very interesting, Face of the Bass - just read most of the introduction in the preview up on amazon (the final one or two pages are missing, alas).

[Quasimado]

Thanks to this thread I now dislike Whites, Blacks and Jews ... (but still like jazz that swings ... is that OK?)

Q

[robertoart]

To stick to the charming imagery here, there's also some oral diarrhea going on ... but that books sounds very interesting, Face of the Bass - just read most of the introduction in the preview up on amazon (the final one or two pages are missing, alas).

The mouse that roared!

[robertoart]

My aunty who was Jewish told me there was religious Jews and 'the tribe of Jews'. Then again Perhaps my aunt was just trying to speak to me in a language she thought I would relate too. Maybe by expecting Jewish leaders to have some kind of civic or formal acknowledgement of past injustices I am being overly respectful to the concept of 'the tribe'. Which takes responsibility for it's self collectively

If the idea of expressions of ownership of past injustices are so silly, perhaps a better question might be has there been much in the way of Jewish exploration and conciliatory literature or music or arts that extends itself the way the Baldwin or West pieces do. The West quote is so conciliatory it comes across as obsequious.

In regards to things specific to here, I've read this board for nearly eight years and been saddened time and again by a significant grain of what I can only feel after all this time is a genuine overarching ignorance and perspective on what the music must mean to Black America and how that is over ridden by the self importance and egos of bit part players and other participants who had control of the cheque books and the texts.

If this was a Shoah board then yes total respect,

But this is a Jazz board, so respect where respect is due and all that.

Edited December 6, 2013 by freelancer

[erwbol]

In regards to things specific to here, I've read this board for nearly eight years and been saddened time and again by a significant grain of what I can only feel after all this time is a genuine overarching ignorance and perspective on what the music must mean to Black America and how that is over ridden by the self importance and egos of bit part players and other participants who had control of the cheque books and the texts.

As a relatively recent arrival I'm curious. Could you provide some links to threads and posts from the past that support your accusations? Else, you'll keep coming across as someone intent on simply stirring things up.

[Big Beat Steve]

I wonder if it makes much sense trying to rewrite history. Acknowledge injustice and do what you can to see to it that past injustice won't repeat itself in the way business is done today - yes.

But would persons/checkbook holders like Herman Lubinsky have been much better and fairer persons if they had NOT been Jewish?

Or isn't there an Alfred Lion for each Herman Lubinsky?

And - referring to who shortchanged whom and to what extent this was a question of the race and faith you are born into - what about persons like John Dolphin? Was he Jewish? Was he white?

So can you really generalize?

[robertoart]

In regards to things specific to here, I've read this board for nearly eight years and been saddened time and again by a significant grain of what I can only feel after all this time is a genuine overarching ignorance and perspective on what the music must mean to Black America and how that is over ridden by the self importance and egos of bit part players and other participants who had control of the cheque books and the texts.

As a relatively recent arrival I'm curious. Could you provide some links to threads and posts from the past that support your accusations? Else, you'll keep coming across as someone intent on simply stirring things up. How I perceive things here and how you perceive them will probably be vastly different. Just keep reading here and participating and enjoy. Unfortunately after being genuinely rapt to find such a board existed in 2006ish, my dismay has significantly increased over time. I think the most telling evidence about this board is not so much who chooses to engage and post here, but who doesn't?

Perhaps it's better to keep things at a certain level. But For me, the whole tenor of the board is essentially tarnished.

Anyway ....back to the boards ragging and thinly disguised vitriol towards Crouch and anyone else who doesn't project the cultural history of the music in ways that are acceptably inclusive to or highlighting peripheral identities.

[AllenLowe]

thank you Big Beat Steve - for making those points, which are exactly the point. Also, don't forget the black-owned label VeeJay which ripped everyone off; or the venal exploits of Berry Gordy, who left a lot of poverty and sickness in his corporate wake. Or Don Robey, who held off the collection of royalties at gun point.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I wonder if it makes much sense trying to rewrite history. Acknowledge injustice and do what you can to see to it that past injustice won't repeat itself in the way business is done today - yes.

But would persons/checkbook holders like Herman Lubinsky have been much better and fairer persons if they had NOT been Jewish?

Or isn't there an Alfred Lion for each Herman Lubinsky?

And - referring to who shortchanged whom and to what extent this was a question of the race and faith you are born into - what about persons like John Dolphin? Was he Jewish? Was he white?

So can you really generalize?

Lion and Wolf were no angels in the ripping off black artists business. How did it come about that, until just before they sold the firm to Liberty, every BN artist who had a hit album left for some other label?

MG

[J.A.W.]

To stick to the charming imagery here, there's also some oral diarrhea going on ... but that books sounds very interesting, Face of the Bass - just read most of the introduction in the preview up on amazon (the final one or two pages are missing, alas).

The mouse that roared!

No need to insult people, freelancer.

[AllenLowe]

MG - knowing jazz musicians as I do, I think it is likely that with a "hit" they developed delusions of grandeur and left for what they thought were greener pastures; maybe what they thought was better distribution or more promo. Right or wrong as they may have been in doing this, it does not mean that BN ripped them off.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

MG - knowing jazz musicians as I do, I think it is likely that with a "hit" they developed delusions of grandeur and left for what they thought were greener pastures; maybe what they thought was better distribution or more promo. Right or wrong as they may have been in doing this, it does not mean that BN ripped them off.

No - but Francis Wolf said, in an interview on BBC's Sunday night jazz programme, done when he was over here to record Mobley's 'The flip', that BN didn't pay royalties - they got a bigger cash payment than union rates + a couple of days' worth of rehearsal money, full stop. And Wolf said that Smith, Donaldson and Byrd came looking for royalties and were told 'fuck off, you were paid cash'. Essentially, BN was taking advantage of the fact that a large proportion of those guys needed upfront money for their next heroin shot.

Again, think about all those tunes published by Blue Horizon Music and Groove Music.

MG

[AllenLowe]

interesting, first I've heard of this. And I know that was Prestige's m.o.

[Fer Urbina]

I don't start many threads, but boy, has this one gone intense...

Anyway, I don't get much into these arguments among other things because I think that you Americans have to do a lot of talk among yourselves about race issues (not that us Europeans are free from any of that).

I'm sure that historically there was a Jewish community just the same as there was an African American community. Just the same as there was a Native American community.

Besides the fact that those "communities" imply some sort of generalization (I'm not talking about neighbourhoods), I don't think we can talk about a single African American community, at least not one covering the whole of the USA. I think the differences between the African American lower and the middle classes are clear enough and deep enough for us to speak about a uniform group of people, from the different ideologies of African American leaders, to the reaction to and relationship with popular African American music (blues and jazz, for instance).

F