possible to Kickstarter TW, BN 16-Aug-1968? or Roots?

[Rooster_Ties]

FWIW, much as I like and appreciate all the Tyrone on the newly expanded Heiner Stadler: Brains on Fire --- IMHO, Tyrone's playing (and the group interplay especially) on the unreleased Blue Note session is consistently better, and a lot more interesting (especially the tunes, as compositions and also as vehicles for soloing). Also, the slow, free ballad on the unreleased session is way better than the slow, free ballad on Natural Essence.

With complete, full-length alternate takes of fully 4 of the 5 tunes -- one can hear how "together" the session really was -- most with lengthy, complex heads -- that are all well-rehearsed, with well-thought-out solos by both Tyrone and Herbie on every take.

I think most of the date is no more 'out' than any of Larry Young's last four Blue Note leader-dates, nor any of the earlier half of Andrew Hill's BN output. The only exception is the most free of the two 'free' tunes -- i.e. the one with the 15-seconds of vocalizations on one of the takes. I would describe two of the tunes as being really free -- one fast and busy, and the other one slow and moody. I often think this one tune (the fast, free one), and especially the one take of it with the short burst of 'vocals' -- as probably being 75% of the reason the session was rejected. Otherwise, how this date hasn't seen the light of day confounds me every time I hear it.

Overall, I'd rank this session as being in my own personal top-20 Blue Note dates list, without a doubt. Right up there (in my book) with most of Andrew HIll's output, Mothership, Complete Communion, Fuchsia Swing Song, the Jackie McLean dates with Charles Tolliver or Grachan Moncur, or Evolution and Some Other Stuff -- you name it. A desert-island disc kind of session, for me, to be sure.

Would $8K or $10K get somebody's attention? Hard to imagine raising more than that. Or is this a totally lost cause, and subject to the whims and arbitrary decisions (and personal tastes) of people not at all moved by money (at least at this level). I.e., sure, $50K would get somebody's attention really fast -- but I know that ain't happening.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Rooster_Ties

[bertrand]

I really think approaching Universal Japan is your best bet. They may be looking for a new angle to their nascent reissue program.

Bertrand.

[Rooster_Ties]

I really think approaching Universal Japan is your best bet. They may be looking for a new angle to their nascent reissue program.

Bertrand.

You may be right -- but as much as I'm glad to (finally) see all the 70's BN releases finally on CD -- I'm kind of surprised we've never seen Larry Young's Contrasts (also with Tyrone Washiongton), or Sam Rivers' A New Conception on CD yet as individual releases -- not here, nor anywhere on the planet. You'd think if anyone was going to ever release them, it would have been the Japanese -- and before (I would think) reissuing LT-series titles with their original covers. (Who among us ever saw THAT happening?? )

So what would be the best approach to contacting Universal Japan? Who's on the inside there? someone close to the actual process of what the Japanese have been reissuing from BN in the last couple years. Not a bean-counter, but someone closer to the music-side of things.

[Rooster_Ties]

And what about Roots? One or two individual tracks have appeared on various Perception various-artists comps (more than one comp, in fact).

And it wouldn't be the very first Perception date reissued on CD. I know there's Larry Young's Lawrence of Newark - which has been on CD - and have there been any others?

FWIW, THIS appears to be everything released on Perception back in the day -- have there been any other CD reissues besides the Larry Young? - and if so, have they all come from the same reissue label?

Edited November 20, 2013 by Rooster_Ties

[CJ Shearn]

Is there a free scene in Japan for Blue Note releases where they'd go for this? The BN releases in Japan are relatively conservative save for the BNLA series reissues. There would be more of a chance of John Zorn buying the tapes and issuing this on Tzadik, I'd think.

[Rooster_Ties]

There's a LOT of crazy, reissues of smaller-label 70's stuff from Japan. Dusty Groove seems to carry things right and left. And Roots seems like the prefect candidate. Hell, even Do Right! got reissued on CD -- how crazy is that!!??

Thing is, Roots is 10x the album that Do Right! is. There's even been an LP reissue of Roots (which I have). No idea if it was legit though (I'm guessing not?).

[Leeway]

Rooster_Ties, I like what you are trying to do. Question: can you run a Kickstarter campaign without having the rights to the performance or product? It seems to me that is the cart before the horse; the horse being rights to the material. Maybe it can be done either way, but raising money for something that may not be deliverable strikes me as problematic. I would think a Facebook campaign might be more effective. Strong PR without necessarily having to raise funds. Get thousands of "Likes" and someone will take notice. The Kickstarter could come after rights were obtained or agreed to and a product type decided upon.

BTW, is Water still in the reissue business? I recall they did a Leo Wright and maybe one or two others.

[robertoart]

Music Matters are sticking their nose in the BN legacy.

I can just see it......a 45rpm double album called 'Trainwreck".

.........for those discerning listeners who are ready to take the next step beyond Blue Train!

[Rooster_Ties]

Rooster_Ties, I like what you are trying to do. Question: can you run a Kickstarter campaign without having the rights to the performance or product? It seems to me that is the cart before the horse; the horse being rights to the material. Maybe it can be done either way, but raising money for something that may not be deliverable strikes me as problematic. I would think a Facebook campaign might be more effective. Strong PR without necessarily having to raise funds. Get thousands of "Likes" and someone will take notice. The Kickstarter could come after rights were obtained or agreed to and a product type decided upon.

I totally realize actually doing a Kickstarter first would be putting the cart before the horse.

I was thinking the only way to get the unrleased BN session out, is to suggest a 'cart' (i.e. a Kickstarter campaign with a specific goal, or some other sort of "Moneyed Petition") to the 'horse' (i.e. to a reissue label willing to do what's necessary to get it released, including the licensing). They would have a hand in developing the Kickstarter campaign - or maybe actually be the one who runs it (actually, I'd really prefer that -- I'd really prefer not to be the one to actually have to run it).

Then I/we promote the hell out of it, get it funded -- and then whomever can actually get it released, gets the funding from the Kickstarter.

I know we can put the cart before the horse, but there ain't no horse gonna pull this cart -- if we don't have a demonstrated cart that can be proven to exist (and not just a facebook page or other petition, but rather "actual money" on the line). Money talks. A petition ain't gonna cut it, I'm afraid.

[ejp626]

Yes, but...

I'm reasonably sure that this kind of a project would get yanked for violating Kickstarter rules, i.e. there is almost no way you can deliver a product without having the rights. Of course that presumes that anyone cares enough to pay attention and report it to Kickstarter staff. And if you are honest about the fact that even if funded, there is less than 10% chance of seeing a physical product, who is going to chip in?

So lame as it may be, I think the petition or Facebook campaign is the way to go.

[Rooster_Ties]

That's why I would push to have some reissue label start/do/manage/run a Kickstarter campaign for this effort. We'd obviously have to have discussions in advance about what it would take to make it worth their while. Then they would have to talk to the right people at Universal (or whomever it is that holds the rights to the unreleased BN session), and the reissue lable would have to provisionally work out the necessary details with Universal (pending funding, of course). The Kickstarter would have to be set up such that the legal stuff related to the release was all ready to go, pending the full funding goal being met.

I do realize there is absolutely NO way to pre-fund this (via Kickstarter), prior to all the dominos having been set up in advance, where the Kickstarter (and the associated funds) being the catalyst for the dominos falling.

I'm sure I don't have every detail figured out, and that there are aspects of this I haven't thought of. But the idea is to entice a reissue label (or Mosaic), or whomever has the wherewithal to make it actually happen -- to entice said entity to actually do the deed, if and only if $10K can be raised within the 2 month window (or however it's structured).

I just don't see getting enough people to sign a petition for this (via Facebook, or whatever) to ever make it work -- and not by a longshot. I think the only way is money on the table. A lot fewer people could chip in, but still make it actually work (with the right sort of $$$). My "vote" of $500, or $800 through a Kickstarter would matter 25x or nearly 40x more than if I (as just an individual) voted once on a petition -- which I figures is worth about $20 per vote. (And even then, it's not a binding transaction -- so you'd have to figure half the votes wouldn't matter -- or, rather, you'd have to get twice as many votes (or maybe even more!) to really get anyone's attention).

Edited November 20, 2013 by Rooster_Ties

[Rooster_Ties]

Another crazy idea to toss on the table. A classical organization of some sort (don't really know much about them), recently licensed and reissued the complete works of Carl Ruggles (1980 CBS Masterworks LP) on CD -- originally a 2-LP set that I never dreamed would ever see the light of day on CD. I'm sure this isn't a direct parallel (to put it mildly), and that reissuing something from CBS (that had already come out on LP some 30 years ago) is a totally different animal that trying to do a first-ever issue of a previously unreleased session. But I mention it to suggest that odd, one-off projects can sometimes happen with material owned by something as large as whomever (CBS?) owned those Carl Ruggles masters.

And how many of us ever expected to see such a greatly expanded reissue of Heiner Stadler's Brains on Fire. I thought that was weird as hell (weird, but wonderful! - but still weird).

[Rooster_Ties]

Also, about the topic of how to structure such a Kickstarter with primo perks for big donors. Hell, I haven't a clue what anyone could offer in a case like this -- the reissue of an unreleased session by an obscure artist. If Mosaic were involved, perhaps (and I think there's only the slimmest of slim chances that this would even be possible -- so, no I'm not getting my hopes up in the slightest) -- but maybe a tour of the Blue Note vaults (and yes, I know, Mosiac ISN'T Blue Note -- but perhaps they have the connections to make something like that happen -- or at least MC did 25+ years ago). That wouldn't be a priority for me to experience personally, but I'm sure there are those for whom that would be nice enough to pry loose some cash.

But other than something like that, one would have to assume that almost any reissue label willing to take this on would have next to no chance of being able to offer anything even remotely as tempting as something like that.

That said, if I gave $500 to the project -- I'd sure has heck want 20 copies of the actual CD for my troubles (to give to people over the next several years), and a nicely framed copy of the resulting cover art -- LP size too, please.

So maybe you structure the Kickstarter so bigger donors get multiple copies of the CD when it finally becomes available -- not at any great discount on the price per CD (probably no discount, and heck, even a premium price of $25 per CD) -- but if this ever did actually come out, you can be darn sure I'd want to share it with a lot of people, and I'd be kinda annoyed if -- on top of a huge donation -- I'd also have to buy copies (just like everyone else) for the 20 or 30 people I'm sure I'd want to lay copies on over the next 20 years. (So, yeah, I'd sure like a box of these just lying around, for whenever the urge to share one presented itself).

EDIT: Maybe copies of the CD (@ $25 each) equal to however much you donate, plus a framed poster-size (LP-size) version of the cover for donors over $300 -- maybe that takes too much out of the cost/profit proposition for the reissue label. So maybe at $35 or $40 per CD each (so a $400 donor would get 10 copies of the CD), plus the framed poster/LP-sized cover.

I'm not trying to be "greedy" with what the benefits are for bigger donors -- I'm just trying to get the conversation going. Whatever makes the most sense, towards actually working - obviously is the right answer. And, yes, cart before horse, guilty as charged, I know, I know.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Rooster_Ties

[sidewinder]

Music Matters are sticking their nose in the BN legacy.

I can just see it......a 45rpm double album called 'Trainwreck".

.........for those discerning listeners who are ready to take the next step beyond Blue Train!

Frenzy on the Hofmann Forums..

[Leeway]

All the hip young artists are doing combinations of LP, CD and downloads for different levels of contributions. Top money gets all versions, middle level is one or two, lower level is just download, etc. I betcha an LP version would definitely attract attention.

[Rooster_Ties]

An LP *wouldn't* interest me personally -- but whatever gets the job done, I'd be all for it!

What I would insist on is that he entire session be issued on CD -- but that's at least 18 minutes more music than would comfortably fit on one LP. IIRC, the whole thing clocks in at 68 minutes.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Rooster_Ties

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

a 45 rpm set would guarentee repeated plays for me, a standard jazz cd mastering would not. at least your holy grail exists, thats a big leap in the right direction. my holy grails are all unconfirmed things, like: audio boot of '57 steve allen show w/ monk band feat. hank & art farmer, and the whereabouts of Grant Greens "green acid" session for blue note, missing from the vault for quite some time.

if this ever goes through i bet a download would be the easiest option for them to get on the table....

Edited November 21, 2013 by chewy

[Rooster_Ties]

An official download would be great to at least make it possible for people to hear this thing. But, honestly, I'd be pretty disappointed if 'download' was the only option available (easier, though that may be - technically - and in terms of the expense of the release.) Maybe that's because I just don't download music much (practically not at all) -- and I either want to own something (i.e. physical media, preferably CD), or I almost don't really feel like it's worth having otherwise (electronically). At least for "legit" material that's actually been released, officially.

If we ever get to the point where the majority of music released is download only, I'll be pretty bummed. I'm sure that day is coming, but I still won't ever be happy about it.

EDIT: And I can't even begin to wrap my head around a 45 RPM isssue of something like this (but then I'm not audiophile either, so the whole 45 RPM issue of albums is perplexing to me to begin with).

Edited November 21, 2013 by Rooster_Ties

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

i would be disapointed in just a download too but im thinkin we gotta make it simple as possible for these babies to function

[JSngry]

As long as they make blank CD-Rs and drives to burn music to them, "download only" is just a figure of speech. Or at least, literal only relevant to the point of method of media transfer.

Same thing with color printers and album arts.

[Rooster_Ties]

Still, the unreleased session is far and away MORE than 'good enough' that it really deserves an honest, 'real' release. Download is far better than nothing, but I wouldn't donate $500 to $800 just to see it released as a download only.

The more I hear it, the less and less of a 'Trainwreck' it sounds like to me. "Contrasts" or the 3rd disk of the Andrew Hill BN Select are both FAR less 'together' than this supposed 'Trainwreck'.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Rooster_Ties

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

Arista didnt have cow when this came out...just sayin....