possible to Kickstarter TW, BN 16-Aug-1968? or Roots?

[Rooster_Ties]

I can't help but wonder if there's SOME way to help crowd-fund this into some sort of actual, public existence -- so it at least can be discussed. I'm sure I probably don't want to try and licence the recording myself, and actually have to do the legwork to actually get it released -- but I would more than happily turn over every penny of the Kickstarter funds to MC (or whomever), to do whatever needs doing. How much might be needed? $3,000? Can't be more than $5K or $6K, I wouldn't think (to issue already-recorded material).

It's 68 minutes of heaven (and full-length, great alternate takes of the first four(!) of the five tunes!) -- and it's kind of a crime that nobody's ever heard it (save maybe a couple dozen people, at most probably).

Some days I think I might personally kick in $500 for such a project. Why the heck not? - it's such a GREAT session (IMHO).

Been thinking about this for a couple years, actually - but I wouldn't even begin to know how to approach the right people about it -- which, I suppose, would primarily be MC?

Is Water still active? - could/would they have any interest in releasing it? Dusty Groove has their own sort of label/imprint, don't they? - surely THEY (of all people!!) could write the right sort of hype necessary to make copies fly off the shelves!! (OK, maybe not 'fly' - but they do have a way with words.) The Japanese??? - whomever is putting out the new, expanded Out To Lunch and that other expanded BN Shorter title (maybe not the same Japanese outfit, but they're both Japanese, right?). There's three or four options to consider -- are there more?

Yeah, yeah -- I know -- all probably moot if MC thinks not (assuming he's one of the gatekeepers).

Thoughts???

BTW, here's what we're talkin' about, for those not in the know...

T Y R O N E W A S H I N G T O N

© 1968 Blue Note [unissued]

MUSICIANS
---------
Tyrone Washington: Tenor Saxophone
Herbie Hancock: Piano
Herbie Lewis: Bass
Jack DeJohnette: Drums

TITLES
------
1. Untitled (medium tempo)
2. Untitled (3/4)
3. Rene
4. T
5. Untitled (9/4)

Recorded August 16, 1968, Englewood Cliffs

Edited November 15, 2013 by Rooster_Ties

[Rooster_Ties]

If you haven't guessed, yes, I've had this thing for years -- and I kept quiet about it too (save a time or two very briefly, only saying something here for the first time a couple years ago). Has it been 6 years? Maybe 5, I've lost track.

That's an awfully long time to sit on something like this, and not discuss (and get more people listening to it) -- ESPECIALLY something I'd been salivating about for a good 10 years before I actually got to hear it.

And I didn't just get to hear it -- I got to live with it. The first 2 months I had it, I don't think it left my car stereo. I'm sure I listened to it 100 times within the first 18 months. Yeah, now I can go 6 months without spinning it, but I've REALLY listened to this thing -- probably more than any other person on the planet (no kidding!!) -- and a "Trainwreck" it is NOT!!

I'm convinced, now, that this is Tyrone's single greatest recorded document. And I think Herbie and Jack D. bring it too (Herbie's playing is a LOT like he brought to All Seeing Eye). And no matter what somebody said to me privately at one point (about Herbie Lewis and Jack not quite getting in sync on this date) -- I don't think there's a darn thing wrong with Herbie Lewis' contribution either (or how they play together).

And, hey, while we're at it -- can we get Tyrone's "Roots" on CD?? I'd personally kick in $100 or maybe even $200 on a Kickstarter for that too. How "Do Right" is on CD, and not "Roots"...

Edited November 15, 2013 by Rooster_Ties

[Chuck Nessa]

Time for a shower?

[danasgoodstuff]

I don't think MC gets the last word on this, he doesn't own BN or even work for them, he's an independent contractor with his own label to run (which whoever owns BN now may own a piece of), it won't be on Mosaic...but it might surface elsewhere someday.

[Rooster_Ties]

Don't know that he's the last word, but figure he maybe got the biggest sway (or near veto power).

That, or else we would have heard it by now.

[J.A.W.]

Time for a shower?

[Rooster_Ties]

Time for a shower?

Took a shower, and edited things a bit to tone things down (slightly).

Seriously though -- is there any hope on either front? -- to get the unreleased BN date, or "Roots" on CD legit someday?

[Hardbopjazz]

Off all the unissued session from Blue Note, what makes this one so attractive that is talked about so often here?

[Jim Alfredson]

EMI owns the recording. It would probably be a lot more than $3k to try and get the rights to release it, if they would even entertain such an idea.

[Rooster_Ties]

How much was your Big John Patton Kickstarter, Jim? Surely it could be done for a much as that, no? Surly not a whole lot more. Being an archival release, and all.

[J.A.W.]

EMI owns the recording.

Not anymore, the recording is now owned by Universal.

[Daniel A]

How much was your Big John Patton Kickstarter, Jim? Surely it could be done for a much as that, no? Surly not a whole lot more. Being an archival release, and all.

Are you talking about production costs (mastering, manufacturing etc)? Universal would probably want more for licensing.

[bertrand]

How much did Dusty Groove have to pay to issue Braith's Musart? Since it was from the Concord vault, would it be a similar price than licensing from Universal, or less?

I talked to the owner of Dusty a while back and was thinking of starting a wish list. Maybe we could pursue that. I think the Kickustarter will be too risky.

Bertrand.

[jazzbo]

I'm with this in spirit but. . . I don't think we'll see this unreleased material appear in this manner. Minds that then mattered listened to this and deemed its lack of quality in their eyes dangerous to the legacy of Blue Note records, the criteria then in use. And as Tyrone Washington is not a name to conjure sales with, I really would think the lease price would be high enough that if you were to do the numbers an interested party would realize they'd lose the money.

And it slipped out and a number of those nutty enough to seek it out sought it out and a number of those won't buy a release.

Don't see it happening myself, personal feelings otherwise none-the-less.

Edited November 16, 2013 by jazzbo

[JSngry]

The only problem is that somebody has yet to create a Tyrone Washington Pop Culture Cult Figure Following Internet Buzz.

The days of Product creating Audience are over (or at least on vacation), so what you gotta do in these days is for Audience to create Product.

So, hey, Hipsters get busy - this is your next project, this guy who was In And Of Another World and Who Forsook Mainstream Succcess For Community Outreach And Finally Pure Religion, ALL WHILE STAYING RIGHT IN NEW YORK CITY, THE CENTER OF THE WORLD OF JAZZ AND EVERYTHING, he just disappeared right in front of everybody right where they were and they didn't not even bother to look, so hey Tyrone Washington, THIS is The Guy You Gotta Check Out, Because This Is Some Crazyass Shit, Brah! Get it all onlined and Tweetered and Facialbooked and Instacrammed and all that buzzy stuff where everybody can know about something that nobody knows about.

And then, WHOAH, YEAH, Tyrone Washington, Wow, How Did We Not Know About THIS For So Long, Yet ANOTHER Case Of Evil Music Industry Neglect And Societal Indifference. ANOTHER One.

Let that all stew and simmer for just right, and then THAT'S when you can talk to somebody about, hey, Tyrone Washington's got a Cult Folllowing these days, look at all this, and then THAT'S when somebody might say, well, hmmm...well, yes, this might be an OPPORTUNITY, and then hey, care diem, and all that.

[bertrand]

His still being alive might actually be a negative if someone would want to pursue the approach suggested by Jim above . That, and the fact that he is not playing anymore.

Another thing that would complicate this endeavor greatly is the presence of Herbie Hancock. Would he have the right to refuse this being issued, or does Universal's ownership trump Herbie? Of course, he might be OK seeing this resurface. You never know.

If this session is ever to see the light of day under the current moribund state of the record industry, it will be through the persistence of mega-fans such as Rooster. The odds are slim, but you only go around once, right?

Now The Japanese are still issuing Blue Note titles regularly. Earlby batches were EMI, but I assume the latest crop with the previously unknown or unacknowleged alternates is from Universal. Would they consider issuing this? Would they have the right to? How would someone put the bug in their ear?

Bertrand.

Edited November 16, 2013 by bertrand

[JSngry]

His still being alive might actually be a negative if someone would want to pursue the approach suggested by Jim above . That, and the fact that he is not playing anymore.

Oh but now wait now wait, wait now, just wait - being a still-living willfully reclusive withdrawer from what it is that is being cult-figured about only enhances the cult-figuring appeal.

Remember - this is about us, not about him. He got what he wanted, now it's our turn. If he wants otherwise for us, he can step out of the shadows, in which case, hey, NEW record, or at least YouTube video.

Otherwise, onward, and even then, still so. The is the Mobius Strip Of Inevitability here, once started, never ending, until end reached and then, forever more, It Happened.

21st Century, people, 21st Century.

[robertoart]

That's right its all about us!

Well it's simple then. We need someone to get inside this silly religious thing, get Mr Washington de-programmed and willing to play again. Get some gigs organised with some young hip White kids (or Allen Lowe), and get the vibe happening. Then get Universal via dustygroove to come to the party.

And also....in terms of the actual session being discussed...if someone who has deeply listened to Tyrone Washington's discography as roosterties has, hears this session as a high point, I would bet London to a brick his ears are more attuned to the 'quality - BN legacy bullshit', than some others may be while they were dealing with 'everybody's' session discographies.

Edited November 17, 2013 by freelancer

[David Ayers]

What Lon said, surely? If it's out there (and apparently has been for years) then the market is already saturated.

[ejp626]

What Lon said, surely? If it's out there (and apparently has been for years) then the market is already saturated.

That hardly figures. The truly hardcore have found a way to heard this session, but hardly everyone. I wasn't even aware there was a window in which to get my mitts on the music.

Put it out on EMI-Japan, and hundreds of copies would sell due to the number of completists out there (and then some of the hardcore folks who either want to be legit, want the tangible product with liner notes or both).

[robertoart]

What Lon said, surely? If it's out there (and apparently has been for years) then the market is already saturated.

That hardly figures. The truly hardcore have found a way to heard this session, but hardly everyone. I wasn't even aware there was a window in which to get my mitts on the music.

Put it out on EMI-Japan, and hundreds of copies would sell due to the number of completists out there (and then some of the hardcore folks who either want to be legit, want the tangible product with liner notes or both).

How do you know there's not liner notes with the illicit copies

[ejp626]

What Lon said, surely? If it's out there (and apparently has been for years) then the market is already saturated.

That hardly figures. The truly hardcore have found a way to heard this session, but hardly everyone. I wasn't even aware there was a window in which to get my mitts on the music.

Put it out on EMI-Japan, and hundreds of copies would sell due to the number of completists out there (and then some of the hardcore folks who either want to be legit, want the tangible product with liner notes or both).

How do you know there's not liner notes with the illicit copies

I don't. That's the problem.

[robertoart]

What Lon said, surely? If it's out there (and apparently has been for years) then the market is already saturated.

That hardly figures. The truly hardcore have found a way to heard this session, but hardly everyone. I wasn't even aware there was a window in which to get my mitts on the music.

Put it out on EMI-Japan, and hundreds of copies would sell due to the number of completists out there (and then some of the hardcore folks who either want to be legit, want the tangible product with liner notes or both).

How do you know there's not liner notes with the illicit copies

I don't. That's the problem.

Well I haven't got a copy either if it makes you feel any better. (Smile).

Then again I haven,t got a copy of Natural Essence in my collection either (yet). So l bloody well don't deserve one. (Smile).

I do have the Larry Young Mosaic box though. Does that qualify as committed (big smile).

[Rooster_Ties]

My original post (now edited) originally said "how much $$$ do we need to raise, to say whatever needs to be said"... And I kind of meant it that way -- as in, I know 'money talks', so how much would it take? - and to whom can we hand said pile of money, to actually get either of these things to happen? (Both the unreleased BN session, but also getting Roots on CD too.)

I don't know that what I'm about to suggest is the way to go >>> but would MC himself respond to a sort of "moneyed petition" about the BN date, and if so, how much money would grease the wheels? At one time he was a (the?) gate-keeper, so I presume he's still at least close enough to the process to have some influence.

And to those saying this is "all about us" -- hey, I've already got mine, and in perfectly decent enough sound quality for my ears. So this really ISN'T about me. It's about sharing an important album with those that would care to hear it. And this thing really does need to be heard. Frankly, I think it's better (and better rehearsed) than either disc #3 of the Andrew Hill BN Select (which I love), or even Larry Young's Contrasts - which could have definitely benefitted from another rehearsal. Definitely not the roughest thing ever released on Blue Note, that's for sure (not by a mile).

[robertoart]

Of course it would be great to have this session out in the public domain. It's also really good to hear a counter argument from a knowledgable listener regarding the integrity and quality of this music. That is really interesting. And makes you think the basic line of argument about these last few vault cloggers that 'how could most of these sessions with the greats still in the vaults be anything other than worthy' has to be mostly the reality.

Possibly generational change (in Japan and the US), has maybe lead to a loss of interest and passion to finish the re-issue and vault research 'movement' that I can trace from the late Seventies (in Japan mostly god bless em), to the early to mid 2000's.

Edited November 19, 2013 by freelancer