Archie Shepp free jazz recommendations?

[Steve Reynolds]

Mad Dogs box set

Free improvisation from some of today's greatest improvisers including Parker, Guy, Lytton

[SMB1968]

Lots of good stuff on Impulse ... "Mama Too Tight" is probably my favourite, but "Live in San Francisco" is great (the CD from the 90s is a "hidden" twofer), as are "On This Night", "Four for Trane", "Fire Music" ...

Out of the albums that you mentioned, which would you say are the least structured?

San Francisco, probably, or rather the bonus album therein.

But plenty of stuff on those in your list is pretty structured (Dolphy and Tyner for one, and Ornette's c major music, too, really).

Donauseschingen certainly is a good suggestion, too!

I don't see "lack of structure" as a point of interest, rather how structure (or form) is used, how tradition is being expanded and stretched into new areas (which is maybe why "Mama Too Tight" is my favourite Shepp, you can hear Ellington in there ... and which is why ultimately I prefer Mingus or Dolphy or Ornette to, say, Charles Gayle, Frank Wright and others that are more on the berserk end of the spectrum.

As for "the more dissonant ..." - different genre, but try some Phill Niblock (make sure no animals are harmed, though).

At the present time, a lack of traditional structure and consonance is not only a point of interest for me, it's my primary interest. I'm currently interested in hearing the least traditional, least structured offerings in each artist's catalog. I'm less interested in hearing a representative sampling of Artie Shepp's work than I am in hearing his least structured albums.

Have to agree w/ other posters -- you're pretty far from the least structured possible with the list in your first post. Try tracking down stuff on BYG Actuel, or ESP-Disk for the original way out there material & go hunting for stuff billed as "energy music" for more recent vintage. My rec would be for you to start w/ a copy of either Brotzmann's Machine Gun or Nipples.

[Deepak]

I will second the recommendation of Machine Gun, then look at some early Evan Parker.

For Archie Shepp I never considered his music truly "free", but instead rooted in the blues. And that's what I love about his and Albert Ayler's playing; they both had soul. Judging by the OP's request Mama Too Tight might the recording that fits his criteria most.

[Blue Train]

Mad Dogs box set

Free improvisation from some of today's greatest improvisers including Parker, Guy, Lytton

This is getting absurd. He thinks those he listed are basically free improv and you're recommending Mad Dogs, which costs how much again? He made it clear there was a budget issue.

Others recommending Brotzmann and the rest.

Edited November 10, 2013 by Blue Train

[Steve Reynolds]

Mad Dogs box set

Free improvisation from some of today's greatest improvisers including Parker, Guy, Lytton

This is getting absurd. He thinks those he listed are basically free improv and you're recommending Mad Dogs, which costs how much again? He made it clear there was a budget issue.

Others recommending Brotzmann and the rest.

Is there really a reading for comprehension issue for that many of you?

He wants "unstructured" so I figured the best of the best free improvisors in the area of energetic improvising would be the best place to go.

[Blue Train]

Mad Dogs box set

Free improvisation from some of today's greatest improvisers including Parker, Guy, Lytton

This is getting absurd. He thinks those he listed are basically free improv and you're recommending Mad Dogs, which costs how much again? He made it clear there was a budget issue.

Others recommending Brotzmann and the rest.

Is there really a reading for comprehension issue for that many of you?

He wants "unstructured" so I figured the best of the best free improvisors in the area of energetic improvising would be the best place to go.

So you think just throwing him in the deep end when it's obvious he doesn't belong (he himself isn't clear what he really wants.) there is the best option?

And if he doesn't like it....he spent how much on Mad Dogs?

Work with, or around the musicians anyone mentions and then work them from there depending what they like and or don't is how you recommend things.

And as much I enjoy Mad Dogs....it wouldn't be the first one from any of those involved I would recommend as a must have.

At least the others were mentioning affordable things that if he doesn't like it's not a major loss financially for him.

Edited November 10, 2013 by Blue Train

[John L]

Blue Train - Actually, given the request and specific comments by 1st press on this thread, I think that the recommendations of Steve Reynolds and others of the European and British free improv are quite appropriate. Certainly, it is legit to point out that Mad Dogs would be an expensive first purchase, but why do we need this kind of nastiness in our discussion?

Edited November 10, 2013 by John L

[robertoart]

For my ears, Archie Shepp's music is all part of one piece, whether he's playing more freely or more structured. It's all Archie Shepp music. When you say that you're looking for something that's "the more dissonant the better", it seems to me as if you're trying to compartmentalize his music, rather than accept it for what it is.

edit - Earlier discussions of Archie Shepp's music which you might find interesting:

++shepp

This is a very good post. If the o/p thinks it's smug, maybe he doesn't really want to understand the wholistic nature of Archie Shepp's music. I found it staggering to believe anyone with the kind of list in the o/p, hasn't also heard Archie Shepp yet.

Sounds a bit weird and disingenuous to me. How do you discover these greats and somehow bypass Archie Shepp?

Free Jazz as first conceived was about 'cultural' dissonance, not just aural dissonance. The part never exceeded the whole.

[.:.impossible]

Try John Coltrane Live At The Village Vanguard Again! (impulse!)

I can also highly recommend Roscoe Mitchell Before There Was Sound (Nessa Records) as something I think you will absolutely love.

[Steve Reynolds]

I might take back my Mad Dogs recommendation unless one has an open mind.

Maybe start with Parker-Guy-Lytton's At The Vortex

Listen to it loud 3 times and if one doesn't like that, then stick with traditional free jazz

[Blue Train]

I might take back my Mad Dogs recommendation unless one has an open mind.

Maybe start with Parker-Guy-Lytton's At The Vortex

Listen to it loud 3 times and if one doesn't like that, then stick with traditional free jazz

Steve:

1. It's not the open mind, but the open pocketbook aspect of that recommendation.

2. Now, that @ least I can support if you're going to throw someone into the very deep end.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Blue Train

[clifford_thornton]

I think that the least structured Shepp recording I've heard is on the LP Pitchin' Can on America Records (FR). The title track is a short take of a very soulful Cal Massey tune, but most of the LP is taken up by a piece called "Uhuru (Dawn of Freedom)." It's a loose free blowing thing and never really gets any steam under it, rather meandering with constant commentary (and not in a European, SME-like way). It's probably one of the least successful of Shepp's records of the period. I'd add the Live at Antibes records on BYG as well as the track "We Have Come Back" from Live at the Pan-African Festival and parts of Poem for Malcolm (also on BYG) to this short list.

I've been listening to Shepp as long as I've been listening to jazz (pretty much) as he's one of the first players I checked out. Shepp in '69 was still Shepp, but he seemed to be directing his energies away from composition and the sound of the saxophone within very tight, yet pastiche-like tunes to a more overall "texture of protest" vibe. It's interesting for what it is, but those are not among the records in his catalog that I return to. A friend has called them "free jazz party jams" and he's kind of right.

One of the loosest Shepp LPs that I listen to with some regularity (other than the great Magic of Ju-Ju) is the New York Contemporary Five half of the split LP with Bill Dixon's 7tette on Savoy. Sunny Murray and Ronnie Boykins were sitting in for Don Moore and J.C. Moses, and Ted Curson replaces Don Cherry on two of the three tracks (apparently Cherry was running late). In earlier iterations they were a very tight band out of the Ornette school, but are a little rawer and more unhinged here - mostly because Sunny and Boykins sound completely weird against those knotty heads, not synced up at all. I like the way it comes together, but it's maybe not representative of what the NYCF could do. Shepp is brilliant here, as is John Tchicai.

Oh, and Conquistador is structured as a muh'fu'.

[robertoart]

I always thought Pitchin Can was a jam around the All Blues bass line. Which anchors the whole All Blues thing anyway.

[clifford_thornton]

You're speaking of "Uhuru"? I didn't pick that up regarding the bass line, but it's been years since I listened to it. Will give it a relook and think on that.

[JohnS]

For me the earlier records are most rewarding. I'd recommend

His recordings with Cecil Taylor

New York Contemporary Five

Four For Trane (a classic of the period)

On This Night.

How could I overlook the Shepp/Dixon Quartet. I still remember the thrill of this, my introduction to Shepp.

[etherbored]

Speaking of Shepp (and changing the topic) anyone besides me get the download of his new kickstarter cd? I really like it though it definitely doesn't fir into what we're talking about here. The hard copy should arrive by the end of the month.

i did - and i love it. i think shepp is in a wonderful era as of late.as you say, hardly fitting into what's being discussed here, but still...

[David Ayers]

Isn't this what Spotify is for?

[danasgoodstuff]

FWIW, I find Shepp > compelling in structured settings, $ For Trane & Trouble in Mind being particular favorites.