Wayne Shorter Proper Box (VeeJay, some Blakey...)

[xybert]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beginnings-Wayne-Shorter/dp/B00D8QLTJY/ref=pd_sim_sbs_m_h__3

The Wayne Shorter Blue Note thread reminded me of how much i love 'Introducing Wayne Shorter', so i went searching for copies of Second Genesis and Wayning Moments, his other two VeeJay releases. I stumbled across this Proper box, released August 2013. The set includes the aforementioned three albums, and is padded out with tracks from Wynton Kelly's Kelly Great, The Young Lions, and several Blakey albums (from what i can tell: The Big Beat, A Night In Tunisia, Caravan, Mosaic, Jazz Messengers!!!!!, Like Someone in Love, Meet You at the Jazz Corner of the World). ANIT and Mosaic appear to appear in full, selections from the other albums vary from one track to a few.

For me i really just want Second Genesis and Wayning moments, and at the price including postage it is cheaper than the average full priced new release for me. Of the Blakey stuff featured i only have ANIT; i can't see myself collecting the other full albums at this point so although a 'compilation' is less than ideal i actually find the padding here kind of appealing. From what i can see the majority of the selections are Shorter compositions and those are the tracks i usually find most appealing on the Shorter/Blakey albums i've heard, although i'm sure i'll be missing out on some good stuff here. The key for me is still getting those two Shorter VeeJays that i don't have.

So, quite tempting for me. Only issue for me is the whole ripping off of other labels thing. Anyone care to share their thoughts?

[Chuck Nessa]

I understand the allure of these issues. I admit to buying a couple.

One huge problem is these sets take money away from labels creating recordings and paying royalties to artists. My label is in the midst of a horrible year and paid royalties well in excess of our profits. These folks do not have the same responsibilities.

Since I have a "conflict of interest" YMMV.

Edited October 18, 2013 by Chuck Nessa

[J.A.W.]

My label is in the midst of a horrible year

Really sorry to hear that.

Edited October 19, 2013 by J.A.W.

[TedR]

My label is in the midst of a horrible year

Really sorry to hear that.

Dammit, I'm sorry to hear that too.

[Chuck Nessa]

Don't worry, move on with your music.

Certainly not looking for sympathy, just stating facts.

Edited October 19, 2013 by Chuck Nessa

[JSngry]

Personal preference, of course, but I'm kinda like, avoid those things when at all possible, and even then, buy used, and preferably just get burns. Save the real money for those I'd like to see have it.

[Rooster_Ties]

Personal preference, of course, but I'm kinda like, avoid those things when at all possible, and even then, buy used, and preferably just get burns. Save the real money for those I'd like to see have it.

I'm pretty much the same way, never have bought any new I don't think I even own any used or otherwise. The real thing or nothing, as far as I'm concerned.

[David Ayers]

I'm always saying it - what those labels do is legal and a service in the territories where they operate. Whether the product is good enough for you is another question.

[mikeweil]

Personal preference, of course, but I'm kinda like, avoid those things when at all possible, and even then, buy used, and preferably just get burns. Save the real money for those I'd like to see have it.

Same here.

My only exception is Fresh Sound as they more often than not reissue music no other label cares for, or in expanded editions the original labels do not care to compile. I'd rather buy a Pacific Jazz CD that Cuscuna did, but when Blue Note says they can't break eveb with them ...

Still I think it's the less informed average jazz buyer that goes for such issues, as they're cheaper and he has no idea.

[David Ayers]

Personal preference, of course, but I'm kinda like, avoid those things when at all possible, and even then, buy used, and preferably just get burns. Save the real money for those I'd like to see have it.

Same here.

My only exception is Fresh Sound as they more often than not reissue music no other label cares for, or in expanded editions the original labels do not care to compile. I'd rather buy a Pacific Jazz CD that Cuscuna did, but when Blue Note says they can't break eveb with them ...

Still I think it's the less informed average jazz buyer that goes for such issues, as they're cheaper and he has no idea.

Less informed? Or just less well-off? In any case, someone who buys these economy sets might be pretty well-informed about the music if not about the remastering.

PS tend to agree - outside Fresh Sound I avoid these PD releases.

[Guy Berger]

Personal preference, of course, but I'm kinda like, avoid those things when at all possible, and even then, buy used, and preferably just get burns. Save the real money for those I'd like to see have it.

I buy some of these sets, so I'm probably just honoring in the breach, but I am 100% behind this sentiment. Especially when it comes to PD labels who put out a low quality product.

Edited October 19, 2013 by Guy

[Daniel A]

Making a copy of a PD label set, as suggested above, seems no better morally than copying the source itself, be it a Cuscuna reissue or whatever.

Edited October 19, 2013 by Daniel A

[Guy Berger]

Making a copy of a PD label set, as suggested above, seems no better morally than copying the source itself, be it a Cuscuna reissue or whatever.

The difference is you save your money to buy something else which does go to the artist or a high-quality reissuer.

[sidewinder]

Having got the Mosaic Shorter Vee-Jay set and all of the Blue Notes I (thankfully) have no use for this set.

[Daniel A]

Making a copy of a PD label set, as suggested above, seems no better morally than copying the source itself, be it a Cuscuna reissue or whatever.

The difference is you save your money to buy something else which does go to the artist or a high-quality reissuer.

I save my money by not buying the PD set. Making a copy of any of the available releases is another matter to me.

[GA Russell]

Don't these PD sets typically make copies of CDs? If so, why do you think that the sound is sub-par?

[xybert]

I figured that a lot of people on this board would already have all the material covered by this set in better forms (there was Shorter Vee-Jay Mosiac set? That would've been awesome).

I agree with pretty much everything everyone's said here, on all points. I usually avoid these types of sets too; you generally get what you pay for quality wise and i much prefer supporting official releases. Proper doesn't seem to be too bad, relatively speaking, quality wise (i have an Oscar Pettiford set which is okay).

If i do end up getting this set it won't be ideal for me personally but i will be able to live with myself (fwiw).

[J.A.W.]

http://www.allmusic.com/album/the-complete-vee-jay-lee-morgan-wayne-shorter-sessions-mw0001205164

Edited October 19, 2013 by J.A.W.

[xybert]

http://www.allmusic.com/album/the-complete-vee-jay-lee-morgan-wayne-shorter-sessions-mw0001205164

I would've loved to have been around for this. I feel like the 90s and early to mid 00s must have been a great time to have been a fan of reissues, Mosaic or otherwise.

Edited October 20, 2013 by xybert

[king ubu]

http://www.allmusic.com/album/the-complete-vee-jay-lee-morgan-wayne-shorter-sessions-mw0001205164

I would've loved to have been around for this. I feel like the 90s and early to mid 00s must have been a great time to have been a fan of reissues, Mosaic or otherwise.

Guess they were ... I "joined" around 1996/97 and after a few years felt like I had arrived some six or seven years late (like, nearly all Blue Notes were out on CD around 1988/89 a first time, some never re-appeared afterwards, or for a few weeks in Japan).

The two Vee Jay boxes (Shorter/Morgan and Kelly/Chambers, both six discs) disappeared overnight (as did the Stuff Smith Verve) for reasons never disclosed, as far as I know. Those are wonderful boxes, for sure, and I'm very happy to have them!

[JSngry]

The key point here is that yes, it was a "golden age" for reissues, but the net result is that all that music was put into digital form, which means that unless you have a personal want/need for some kind of an "object" and/or to get a genuinely superb "value added" like you do with Mosaic's documentation and/or a "legit" label's providing original art work or other packing/documentation specialties, you're really not "getting" anything for your money with stuff like this that you couldn't get for free elsewhere. That's perhaps not "ethical", but otoh, I don't know how "ethical" it is to inflict damage to yourself that lessens your ability to spend money on projects/people/whatever that you genuinely want to support, or, for that matter, to free up funds to pursue items such as OOP Mosaics, etc. on the "collector's market".

You gotta have a long game if you want to build a collection on not-unlimited funds, ya' know?

[mjzee]

I still have not torrented (for lack of a better word). I'm concerned about viruses, but also about the ethics of torrenting (floabw). As I understand it, the torrent service can use the computing power of your computer for their purposes, and I don't want to give these unknown people that ability.

[erwbol]

For me torrenting has replaced previewing albums in record stores.

[JSngry]

Torrenting will never replace making friends!

[erwbol]

Being able to buy music anonymously on the internet is a great relieve to me. I have no use for the human element of a brick and mortar. Good riddance.