Looking for "Trane's First Ride" vol. 2 on Oberon Label LP

[Stonewall15]

John Coltrane on Oberon label LP # 5100. Could also be on Broadcast Tributes LP label # 0009. Title may be "Dizzy Gillespie Sextet". Consists of live broadcasts in NYC on Jan 13, 20 and Feb 3, 1951.

[Larry Kart]

Sorry, but the above post would seem to be counter to forum rule 7:

We do not allow sharing, trading, or linking copyrighted material that is being offered illegally, including bootlegs.

[Stonewall15]

I am looking to buy this LP. I do not see how this violates rule #7.

[J.A.W.]

I guess it's a bootleg and ads asking for bootlegs are against rule 7.

[Stonewall15]

It is not a bootleg- it was issued on an Oberon label LP. I have volume 1, issued on the Oberon label. As I look further into "Trane's First Ride" vol 2 it looks like it was issued only on the Broadcast Tributes label # BT-009 LP. So I am looking to purchase the Broadcast Tributes label LP.

[J.A.W.]

Were these broadcasts authorized by the owners of the rights to be released on LP? If so, they're legit; if not, they're bootlegs.

Edited September 19, 2013 by J.A.W.

[paul secor]

It is not a bootleg- it was issued on an Oberon label LP. I have volume 1, issued on the Oberon label. As I look further into "Trane's First Ride" vol 2 it looks like it was issued only on the Broadcast Tributes label # BT-009 LP. So I am looking to purchase the Broadcast Tributes label LP.

The fact that it was released on a record label doesn't make it legit.

[Rooster_Ties]

I kind of thought (presumably ancient) LP issues of air-checks were kind of given a pass on this rule.

I know, know -- nothings ever been said about that officially -- but I've always figured that if something was old enough to be from the LP-era (and presumably WAY out of print), that actually discussing the LP's themselves (including finding them) might not be such a horrible idea.

The theory being that the older the source of the media itself (in this case, the vinyl -- not the content), the less of an issue it was.

I could see inquiring about where I could find an old LP of something (quasi-legal, at best), where inquiring about where to download the very same recordings would be off limits.

Just my 2 cents, and I'm perfectly happy however the powers-that-be prefer.

PS: Or another way of looking at it -- it's the very "after-market" nature of (old) bootleg LP's that (I think) should make this less of an issue. It's not like one could find this LP on Amazon, or as a (current) commodity item on any other on-line source. I'm thinking the statute of limitations is long gone in terms of when an old bootleg LP was actually pressed -- what, 25+ or even closer to 35+ years ago?

Edited September 19, 2013 by Rooster_Ties

[J.A.W.]

I kind of thought (presumably ancient) LP issues of air-checks were kind of given a pass on this rule.

I know, know -- nothings ever been said about that officially -- but I've always figured that if something was old enough to be from the LP-era (and presumably WAY out of print), that actually discussing the LP's themselves (including finding them) might not be such a horrible idea.

The theory being that the older the source of the media itself (in this case, the vinyl -- not the content), the less of an issue it was.

I could see inquiring about where I could find an old LP of something (quasi-legal, at best), where inquiring about where to download the very same recordings would be off limits.

Just my 2 cents, and I'm perfectly happy however the powers-that-be prefer.

PS: Or another way of looking at it -- it's the very "after-market" nature of (old) bootleg LP's that (I think) should make this less of an issue. It's not like one could find this LP on Amazon, or as a (current) commodity item on any other on-line source. I'm thinking the statute of limitations is long gone in terms of when an old bootleg LP was actually pressed -- what, 25+ or even closer to 35+ years ago?

It's simple: it's either legit or it isn't. If it isn't, an ad asking for a copy is against forum rules; its age doesn't make any difference.

Edited September 19, 2013 by J.A.W.

[colinmce]

Rules are rules, and so be it, but I agree with Rooster_Ties: old aircheck LPs seem a far cry from a "jazzmessengers.com" type CD product. If the OP wanted a Harry James or Casa Loma aircheck instead of Coltrane, would it be an issue?

[Big Beat Steve]

Rules are rules, and so be it, but I agree with Rooster_Ties: old aircheck LPs seem a far cry from a "jazzmessengers.com" type CD product. If the OP wanted a Harry James or Casa Loma aircheck instead of Coltrane, would it be an issue?

Spot-on. I agree with Rooster_Ties too.

Seems to me like the bone of contention in this particular case it that it is TRANE. Like Colinmce said, if it was some Boris Rose (or similar) 70s/early 80s aircheck LP by one of the swing-era big bands , nobody but REALLY nobody would give a hoot.

That said, I admit I've been on the lookout for the Oberon LPs too (though not with much determination and perseverance).

BTW, both LPs made it into a review in the All Music Guide (printed copy, 2nd. ed.) and I don't recall this book having to be retracted for endorsing illegal products.

So, please ... take it easy, folks, hey?

BTW, what if Oberon turned out to be a European affair? (Just thinking aloud ...)

Edited September 19, 2013 by Big Beat Steve

[Rooster_Ties]

I think any LP-based boot that's from any time in the last century (last millennium, actually) should be given a pass.

[Big Beat Steve]

I think any LP-based boot that's from any time in the last century (last millennium, actually) should be given a pass.

Besides, whatever pressing runs these Oberon LPS ever made it to, those NEW-LP quantities no doubt were sold off in total long, long ago. So whatever "royalty infringement" damage (if any) might have been done, that's all a thing of the (fairly distant) past by now. Wherever a copy of these LPs (or others like this) changes hands today, we are talking about a second-hand (or third or fourth-hand) deal that would not be subject to any additional royalty payments anywhere anymore anyway.

[Clunky]

I agree with Rooster and BBS but we've been round the houses so many times. No links to boot/ grey issues. It does seem a bit overly protective to worry about 30 yr old LPs but Jim wants to spend the money we're donating to keeping the forum up and not on legal fees.

It's a while since I mentioned my Jazz Collector 78s from 1949, dubs of Paramount material etc. I doubt they were legal when they were released.

I'll be sure not post any links to these items in future

Edited September 19, 2013 by Clunky

[Big Beat Steve]

But it's not even a link because nobody put one up for sale anywhere. And again - this is a secondhand affair. Any secondhand LP (legal or not) is outside the reach of any legal matter because the NEW-item sale (that enforceably would have been subject to royalties) has been concluded jezz knows how many decades ago.

I dont even think Jim would worry unduly about THIS isolated aspect but it rather seems to me a dead horse is being ridden here.

[paul secor]

The rule is there. Jim must have thought it was important. If you're looking to pick up a bootleg, it's simple enough to look elsewhere. The internet is a wide, wide world.

[Big Beat Steve]

The rule is there. Jim must have thought it was important. If you're looking to pick up a bootleg, it's simple enough to look elsewhere. The internet is a wide, wide world.

Are you really sure it was meant for this rule to extend to items that have been OOP for DECADES?

And would you be willing to have the same rules enforced for those currently IN-PRINT items that would have to be considered bootlegs by U.S. copyright standards when sold to U.S. (potential) buyers, particularly if marketed by U.S. retailers? All of them, not just "Andorrans"?

Edited September 19, 2013 by Big Beat Steve

[Larry Kart]

What Paul said makes sense to me, especially "If you're looking to pick up a bootleg, it's simple enough to look elsewhere." Why should we have to spend time here being Solomonic about such matters? OTOH, yesterday I saw a great video that showed how you can balance ten nails on the head of a nail that's been hammered into a board.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/500585/nail_magic_trick_balance_10_nails_on_1_nail_head/

[Stonewall15]

I had no idea that by posting my desire for an obscure 1951 John Coltrane/Dizzy Gillespie session LP would give rise to such a discussion. I have learned a lot about the "bootleg" issue thanks to the various responders.

It seems to me that music performed over 60 years ago should be in the public domain. I repeat my request: does anyone out there have an Oberon or Broadcast Tributes LP of "Trane's First Ride" vol. 2 that they would be willing to sell me?

[Big Beat Steve]

It seems to me that music performed over 60 years ago should be in the public domain. I repeat my request: does anyone out there have an Oberon or Broadcast Tributes LP of "Trane's First Ride" vol. 2 that they would be willing to sell me?

Good luck, then, with your search.

I am afraid, though, you will have to live with the assumption that it is not totaly unlikely that the original pressing run of those LPs has vanished from the market for good because maybe there are diehard Trane adulators somewhere out there among the jazz record hoarding fraternity who otherwise might uphold high moral standards of "no-no-ing the bad bootleggers" much like it was done here in this thread too yet among their vinyl shrine of Traneabilia there happen to sit these two Oberon LPs too ("because after all it is the only way of being able to listen to those utterly formative performances of my dearly beloved 'Trane!" ... )

Can we prove that there are such characters? No. But I'd bet you a nickel that there are some somewhere out there if you somehow manage to look close enough ...

BTW, lest somebody twists this statement around: I am defintely NOT implying this applies to those who spoke out against shady releases here in THIS thread but we all know this "condoning bootlegs or not" discussion affects many more people in many areas of the collecting hobby.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Big Beat Steve

[sonnymax]

Stonewall15,

There are ways to communicate privately with other members that avoid possible negative consequences for Jim and the board. Inquiries like "Has anyone ever heard of...", "Is there such a thing as...." and so on are sometimes used to elicit responses from interested members via pm and email. Discretion is the key.