king ubu Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 BBS: it's all about having the info out, not having actual access to the session reels with all the breakdowns ... I see why with Bird all of that was released, but I really don't feel the need that each breakdown the Jazz Messengers ever threw on RVG's floor needs to be released. But why not included it if you do compile a discography? Surely everyone produces a dud every now and then, who cares, such is life. But then again, if David mentions such a breakdown take with a great Hubbard solo ... I'd be all for hearing that - that might even be of more interest than an alternate take that was for decades considered too close to the master to be worthy of release. If I was in charge, I might throw some compilations of leftovers out and test the market for that - buying the same over and over again for yet another alternate take or yet another remastering does get tiresome, even to unbounded enthusiasts like yours truly In that spirit, I'm a big fan of the "Lost Sessions" Connoisseur disc! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel A Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 (edited) Re: the breakdown after Hubbard's solo. It happened during Shorter's solo during his own session and I can imagine many reasons to why Shorter himself wouldn't want to see it released. Indeed, most artists would probably not want to see anything released that was once "rejected". I'm a bit selfish and happy whenever we get the possibility to hear unheard material from artists and sessions we know. But if the decision to reject something came from artistic reasons, and not for example time constrictions, I think that it should generally be respected even if the artist is no longer with us. However, a discography has significance in itself as a historical document; where and when was something recorded, how many takes, who was supposed to be there but didn't show up etc. I think that kind of information should be preserved and I don't believe it does the artist any harm. Edited October 23, 2013 by Daniel A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 OTOH, there have been recordings where the alternate take released decades later showed that it clearly was rejected because one of the featured stars (maybe the leader who had the final word) did a fluff. But since another soloist blew a superior solo (compared to the master take) it was in order for it to be released later on and we should be grateful for it. Better than those "spliced" takes that were often used in other cases IMO. As for sessions or tunes rejected for "artistic" reasons, isn't this often rather subjective? I.e. a 98% (or even 95%) result may fall short of a 100% perfect result but still is highly welcome and appreciated by diehard fans of the artist/lineup in question (and those probably would regard an 80% result just as highly as a 98% result). AND it could add to the appreciation of the evolution of the artist in question. As for what a discography is supposed to include - largely agreed. Keeping allegedly "dud" (and therefore unissued) sessions under cover would be uncalled for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted October 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 i find alternates often a dilution, but they are skippable. It is when we are given all the takes from a live recording with all the solos restored that had been previously edited out that I start to get really bored. We need nerdy folks to do the spadework and know what's there but then someone has to rein them in before they shower us with just absolutely everything. (Miles at the Blackhawk! Come on!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 @David Ayers: Note I am not specifically referring to the umpteenth alternate take of this or that track where the master take is well known (as well as one or two "current" alternates, maybe). I was thinking of tunes that had never before been released (and maybe not recorded by the artist on any other occasion) or even of entire sessions that had remained in the can (for whatever reasons) and may include music never heard anywhere else in that particular form (again, tunes not recorded elsewhere by this artist or lineups that never got together again in this form anywhere before or after). Speaking of BN, cannot recall the details but wasn't there talk of some Grant Green and Horace Silver sessions somewhere on this forum that would fall into that bracket, for example? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 Btw, I'm positively lost ... I created an account on cdjapan now ... As far as the alternates debate goes ... I like 'em. With older stuff (swing, 3 minute tracks) I prefer listening to sessions in actual order, with later stuff (Blue Note, whatever, fifties, sixties etc.) I prefer having them grouped after the masters in most cases. To me, they offer a glimpse into the working procedures and I find that very fascinating in many cases, and I even enjoy some reels with all the breakdowns etc. You get to be the fly of the wall ("Teo, you can overdub that!") and I find that interesting in most cases. Obviously it's not part of the finished, polished product, the "album", or whatever that is ... and I see musicians being opposed to such material being picked up from the cutting room floor - but still, it allows for historical perspective and I love that! And I think, in all honesty, musicians are not the best to judge that part. I mean what is it with Ornette and "Crisis"?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel A Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 (edited) i find alternates often a dilution, but they are skippable. It is when we are given all the takes from a live recording with all the solos restored that had been previously edited out that I start to get really bored. We need nerdy folks to do the spadework and know what's there but then someone has to rein them in before they shower us with just absolutely everything. (Miles at the Blackhawk! Come on!) Clearly this is an ironic post, but you are excused for not using any emoticon since I agree that there's not any of them that fits. Maybe we should introduce a subtle device like a slightly different background color for situations like this? An observation that may not mean anything is that there are mostly Europeans left in this discussion. Maybe just a time zone problem? Edited October 23, 2013 by Daniel A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 But then a discography is there to disclose, not to guard/defend/hound? It can also be used as a promotional tool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 But then a discography is there to disclose, not to guard/defend/hound? It can also be used as a promotional tool. Yeah, but then it's crap ... can't serve two masters. An observation that may not mean anything is that there are mostly Europeans left in this discussion. Maybe just a time zone problem? Maybe also a problem of approaching history in a different way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMB1968 Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 (edited) King Ubu said: . But then again, if David mentions such a breakdown take with a great Hubbard solo ... I'd be all for hearing that - that might even be of more interest than an alternate take that was for decades considered too close to the master to be worthy of release. If I was in charge, I might throw some compilations of leftovers out and test the market for that - buying the same over and over again for yet another alternate take or yet another remastering does get tiresome, even to unbounded enthusiasts like yours truly The adoption of that philosphy is one of the reasons, IMO, that the Complete Sun Ship Session is such a good set. I love hearing the "mistakes." Edited October 23, 2013 by SMB1968 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Late Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 I just listened to all the 45 second sound samples of the new alternate takes on CD Japan. Somewhat frustratingly, they end before any soloing takes place. One exception — the new alternate of "Blue Train." You do get to hear a few bars of Coltrane's solo. I have to admit — I'm intrigued. Ultimately, I'm glad that the Japanese market decided to release these takes. (Would I personally have chosen something else to reissue? Yes, of course! But I'm glad these classic titles are still generating enthusiasm.) Now I hope/pray the remastering of this current crop doesn't suffer from the dreaded "loudness war." As Nancy Reagan said about her favorite Blue Note titles: "Just say NO to too much compression!" (Nancy's single favorite title, by the way, was Unit Structures.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erwbol Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 New liner notes by Michael Cuscuna. No justification for the sudden appearance of these two alternate takes. No word in English on who is responsible for the remastering, but this sounds terrific! I'm going to order a lot more of these, that's for sure. These are the Blue Note 24bit remasters I have been waiting for. Alternate takes track length 8:34 and 5:44. Worthy of finally being released imo. Sound quality of alternates only a little less than the album itself. I'll leave it to the board's musician intellectuals like JSngry to make more coherent and meaningful statements on the merit of these alternates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Gray Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 I have just received my copy of Somethin' Else, the only one I ordered. I have to agree with everything erwbol say, it sounds wonderful. I can't imagine why the new take of Autumn Leaves was not issued before. Very similar to the 'old' version but it just misses out on the magical ending that the version we all know has, with Miles alone floating over the rhythm section. Instead Miles plays with Cannon at the end. I suspect they did another take to improve the ending. If you love this album as I do, buy it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 (edited) Thanks for the reports you two. I had some points at cdjapan so I ordered the two Shorters, the two Monks, and the Adderley for a good total price. Of all those offered, these would be the ones I would want in the best sound. Will have to wait but will be worth it. Edited October 29, 2013 by jazzbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erwbol Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 I'm also interested in the Monks. Hopefully a third volume with the missing Criss Cross among others will be released next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etherbored Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 btw, i think it's interesting that these are being co-marketed by universal. did another round of corporate gobble occur while my head was turned? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel A Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 (edited) Since April 1, 2013 apparently EMI Japan is owned by Universal. Edited October 29, 2013 by Daniel A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etherbored Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 i should have known... it'll be interesting to see how they handle the holy grail of catalogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel A Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 (edited) To return to the subject of the suprise alternate takes on 'Out To Lunch', I found thread while searching for something else. If there's any truth to it, it seems as if the tape vault is not comprehesively indexed. If the "real" master tapes of OTL weren't used until 2008 it could explain why the alternates weren't on any previous reissues. Of course, if they were on the session log, they should have been in the discography anyway. Edited October 31, 2013 by Daniel A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erwbol Posted October 31, 2013 Report Share Posted October 31, 2013 I'm also interested in the Monks. Hopefully a third volume with the missing Criss Cross among others will be released next year. Oops. Those missing tracks are already on the Milt Jackson disc! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted October 31, 2013 Report Share Posted October 31, 2013 Yeah, I just realized that would be nice to have to complete the Monk material, and an amazon marketplace seller had it at a decent price, so. . . . I should stop right there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deepak Posted November 2, 2013 Report Share Posted November 2, 2013 Since April 1, 2013 apparently EMI Japan is owned by Universal. I would not be surprised if these same albums get reissued again on SHM-SACD in Japan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erwbol Posted November 3, 2013 Report Share Posted November 3, 2013 Since April 1, 2013 apparently EMI Japan is owned by Universal. I would not be surprised if these same albums get reissued again on SHM-SACD in Japan Only SHM-SACDs are not Hybrid, if I'm not mistaken, so buyer beware. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtSalt Posted November 3, 2013 Report Share Posted November 3, 2013 It's Hancock's Empyrean Isles that I am really looking forward to on these releases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erwbol Posted November 3, 2013 Report Share Posted November 3, 2013 (edited) It's Hancock's Empyrean Isles that I am really looking forward to on these releases. Did you order it? My copy shipped 1 November on SAL, so it should be here around 15 November at the latest. Edited November 3, 2013 by erwbol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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