Classic Blue Notes on SHM-CD

[J.A.W.]

Or is it simply that Blue Note's new owner isn't concerned about past "rejected" decisions?

Maybe, but the question then remains why they were not listed in the Cuscuna/Ruppli Blue Note discography. It does list rejected takes and tracks, so why not these "new" ones?

[colinmce]

I once read Cuscuna mention re: OTL that he was amazed how well the musicians played such complex material in one session, but when he heard the tapes he realized it took a lot of fucking up to get there (his words, iirc).

[JSngry]

There are alternates to Unity...

[romualdo]

I've attached a scan of the "Blue Train" session taken from the JC Reference

This is much more detailed than the BN Discographies (1st or 2nd editions) - don't think we can use these as "gospel" re what was unissued/rejected

It's interesting to also note that Porter et all credit Michael Cuscuna for the session details (ie from the "horses mouth") - he would know about these unissued "alternates"

It's probably likely that the Japanese are adding titles (alternates) that MC would not have considered adequate for release in the 80's/90's & 2000's

Wonder if they consulted him

Looks like they'll be releasing tk 7 of Blue Train

Edited October 22, 2013 by romualdo

[Daniel A]

Very interesting, romualdo! Does the discography offer any explanation why the matrix numbers for 'Blue Train' are out of sequence with the other titles recorded at the same session?

Edited October 29, 2013 by Daniel A

[romualdo]

Very interesting, romualdo! Does the discography offer any explanation why the matrix numbers for 'Blue Train' is out of sequence with the other titles recorded at the same session?

Sorry but no - minimal session notes for this recording except to say that it was recorded in both mono & stereo plus there was a three hour rehearsal at Nola Studio the day before the session

[ejp626]

I am so intrigued by Speak No Evil and Out to Lunch and these potential alternates. However, I think I will hold off until someone can actually report back with some details, such as whether they were unjustly suppressed or indeed if they are true alternates and not something like false starts.

[Daniel A]

I am so intrigued by Speak No Evil and Out to Lunch and these potential alternates.

For me personally, it's the alternates from 'Speak No Evil' that are the most interesting. On a sideline, when I was googling for info about the session I found that a rejected attempt at the 'Speak No Evil' album with Billy Higgins instead of Elvin Jones was recorded two months earlier:

Freddie Hubbard (trumpet) Wayne Shorter (tenor saxophone) Herbie Hancock (piano) Ron Carter (bass) Billy Higgins (drums)

Rudy Van Gelder Studio, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, November 2, 1964

Witch Hunt Blue Note rejected

Dance Cadaverous - rejected

Speak No Evil - rejected

I never knew about that session.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Daniel A

[david weiss]

I don't have the Ruppli book handy but if I recall correctly, I don't remember the alternate takes from Speak No Evil, Out to Lunch or Unity being mentioned at all in there.

As to why they haven't seen the light of day before now......

From what I have been told both directly and indirectly is that at the beginning of all this, the philosophy was that an alternate take had to be of a certain quality, sure, but that it also had to shed new light on the tune....a different twist to it, a different tempo or something that distinguished it from the original take. If it was the same format, same solos, same tempo etc etc, it usually wasn't considered.

Now over the years, I think that stance has softened a bit and now with the material pretty much exhausted, I think there has been some "reevaluating" as well.

This is the first I've heard of Out to Lunch alternates but I've had the Unity and Speak No Evil alternates for years.

I had some say in choosing the alternates for this release of Speak No Evil and I think they are quite good especially the Witch Hunt (which is taken a bit faster here). The Fee Fi Fo Fum is solid here but there was another take with an incredible Freddie Hubbard solo that unfortunately breaks down during Wayne's solo so it is not usable.

The tapes for the earlier attempt at Speak No Evil with Billy Higgins apparently no longer exist.....

I have to assume they taped over them. Tape is expensive.......

I've certainly heard train wrecks here and there on these sessions and many others.....it happens. These guys were well rehearsed before they went into the studio though, Alfred and Francis insisted on that and that is part of the reason the level is so high on these dates.

I pushed for the Unity stuff so hopefully down the road a bit it will see the light of day........

[J.A.W.]

I've attached a scan of the "Blue Train" session taken from the JC Reference

This is much more detailed than the BN Discographies (1st or 2nd editions) - don't think we can use these as "gospel" re what was unissued/rejected

It's interesting to also note that Porter et all credit Michael Cuscuna for the session details (ie from the "horses mouth") - he would know about these unissued "alternates"

It's probably likely that the Japanese are adding titles (alternates) that MC would not have considered adequate for release in the 80's/90's & 2000's

Wonder if they consulted him

Looks like they'll be releasing tk 7 of Blue Train

Coltrane Blue Train.jpg

I wonder why these weren't mentioned in the Cuscuna/Ruppli discography; it was expensive enough...

I don't have the Ruppli book handy but if I recall correctly, I don't remember the alternate takes from Speak No Evil, Out to Lunch or Unity being mentioned at all in there.

As to why they haven't seen the light of day before now......

From what I have been told both directly and indirectly is that at the beginning of all this, the philosophy was that an alternate take had to be of a certain quality, sure, but that it also had to shed new light on the tune....a different twist to it, a different tempo or something that distinguished it from the original take. If it was the same format, same solos, same tempo etc etc, it usually wasn't considered.

Now over the years, I think that stance has softened a bit and now with the material pretty much exhausted, I think there has been some "reevaluating" as well.

This is the first I've heard of Out to Lunch alternates but I've had the Unity and Speak No Evil alternates for years.

I had some say in choosing the alternates for this release of Speak No Evil and I think they are quite good especially the Witch Hunt (which is taken a bit faster here). The Fee Fi Fo Fum is solid here but there was another take with an incredible Freddie Hubbard solo that unfortunately breaks down during Wayne's solo so it is not usable.

The tapes for the earlier attempt at Speak No Evil with Billy Higgins apparently no longer exist.....

I have to assume they taped over them. Tape is expensive.......

I've certainly heard train wrecks here and there on these sessions and many others.....it happens. These guys were well rehearsed before they went into the studio though, Alfred and Francis insisted on that and that is part of the reason the level is so high on these dates.

I pushed for the Unity stuff so hopefully down the road a bit it will see the light of day........

Thanks for the info!

Edited October 22, 2013 by J.A.W.

[Daniel A]

Many thanks for sharing this information, David!

Also, accept my apology for confusing your name in an earlier post (now corrected).

Edited October 22, 2013 by Daniel A

[bertrand]

David, does this alternate take of 'Witch Hunt' also have the intro which Wayne layer used for 'Pegasus'?

Thanks,

Bertrand.

[Late]

It's interesting how philosophies re. alternate takes seem to have shifted somewhat. Now, Japanese reissues contain (more) alternate takes, while U.S. reissues contain fewer. In the 90's (I'm thinking of the TOCJ Blue Note Works era), the very opposite was the case (that is, no alternates on Japanese editions).

So, 1,000 (Japanese?) Blue Note fans were allowed to vote for and choose the first 50 reissues in this new TYCJ campaign? All the Sonny Rollins Blue Note titles were included ... and no Sam Rivers? No Don Cherry? No Art Hodes? No Teddy Bunn? (Also note the absence of perennial Blue Note favorite True Blue.)

(In the voice of Enoch Thompson/Steve Buscemi): "I thought I paid for those votes!"

Surely, this 75th anniversary series will contain a better-sounding version of Contours than what we currently have on compact disc. Then I can go to sleep and never wake up.

And in 2089, for the 150th anniversary, Ornette Coleman's Complete Town Hall Concert will finally see a digital (holographic) release. I'll be 119 (the green tea helped a lot), and the chip will slide in to the drive in my hearing aid. Yay!

[erwbol]

Yes, isn't it amazing how the Japanese people voted in practically all the titles with newly discovered alternate takes without even knowing about them. Truly the land of the gods.

[alankin]

The revised edition of the Cuscuna/Ruppli Blue Note discography don't mention these alternates either.

[Daniel A]

So it would seem that session logs were used for some entries in the Cuscuna/Ruppli (sessions lost altogether) but not for sessions that had actually been issued/reissued. Were takes "not meant to be heard" deliberately excluded? I suppose it would still fit the definition of a "discography", but not in the sense many of us would hope.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Daniel A

[david weiss]

It would seem like the session logs were edited for the Cuscuna/Ruppli book as they probably felt they shouldn't include false starts and incomplete takes etc etc.

As for missing some complete takes that have since seen the light of day, I'm not sure what to say about that......

With their usual over efficiency, my CDs arrived from Japan today (I just gave them my address Sunday night).

These came out quickly, I chose the Speak No Evil tracks in the middle of August.

As for previously unreleased tracks, I see the following.....

Blakey Moanin' Alternate Blue March

Dolphy Out to Lunch Alternate Hat and Beard and Something Sweet, Something Tender

Shorter Speak No Evil Alternate Witch Hunt and Fee Fi Fo Fum

Adderley Something Else Alternate Autumn Leaves

David, does this alternate take of 'Witch Hunt' also have the intro which Wayne layer used for 'Pegasus'?

Thanks,

Bertrand.

Same intro as the original Bertrand. The difference here is that on the original take they slowed the tempo down after the intro for the body of the tune and on the alternate the tempo stays the same throughout......

It's interesting how philosophies re. alternate takes seem to have shifted somewhat. Now, Japanese reissues contain (more) alternate takes, while U.S. reissues contain fewer. In the 90's (I'm thinking of the TOCJ Blue Note Works era), the very opposite was the case (that is, no alternates on Japanese editions).

At the moment, the Japanese are the only ones still reissuing these things so there really isn't any comparing. Apparently they wanted something new or special for this run (or was hoping there would be something) and Cuscuna did what he could to accommodate......

Edited October 22, 2013 by david weiss

[J.A.W.]

Apparently they wanted something new or special for this run (or was hoping there would be something) and Cuscuna did what he could to accommodate......

Does that mean that Michael is still involved with Blue Note in some way? Some time ago I heard that he had left.

[king ubu]

If they want something special, why not reissue the remaining few missing pieces ... the Tyrone Washington, and that one Byrd with large band (orchestra, singers?) I've never seen ... and the unissued KD album, the unissued Ike Q. date with Grant Green ...

Thanks for confirming those alt tks - I'm game for Dolphy, Shorter and Adderley, I guess!

[robertoart]

And no Grant Green as leader or sideman in these first fifty?

Conspicuous by his absence this time around.

Just release the unreleased sessions Japan. Just like ya did in the old days. God bless ya's!

Those scoundrels Music Matters will never do it.

[JSngry]

As for missing some complete takes that have since seen the light of day, I'm not sure what to say about that......

Something about guarding/defending the legacy would probably be safe...that's the language that was used at the time.

[king ubu]

But then a discography is there to disclose, not to guard/defend/hound? I mean obviously if the intel is out, people will ask for it all ... but just that is no reason it has to be released, is it?

[Daniel A]

Maybe a certain amount of time has to pass. Lots of Charlie Parker alternates and breakdown takes have been released, but you don't hear the claim that those are threatening his legacy. On the other hand, not many people are expecting to see rejected takes or breakdowns listed in discographies for sessions from the 90s.

When the first edition of the Ruppli/Cuscuna Blue Note discography was published many of these sessions were only 20-25 years old. If it was revised today maybe Cuscuna would reconsider. Or he had to, since the alternates have been released.

Since breakdowns etc were listed in the Coltrane discography one would hope that someone, someday would be willing to compile the same information regarding other artists as well. Speaking for myself, I find that kind of information interesting and enlightening, even if I never get to hear what's been rejected.

[Big Beat Steve]

I am not so sure about breakdowns, etc. (unless they have already been released). I cannot see they add all that much. Obviously during many studio sessions there must have been breakdowns, so ...

In a pinch I could live with it if the umpteenth alternate of well-known tune X from an oft-reissued session were not mentioned in such discographies but what I would hate to see omitted are rejected tunes or sessions that might not even have been released anywhere at a later date (and may not even have been recorded elsewhere at all). I'd find it very interesting and enlightening to see what might have been recorded beond the issued and may just remain buried in the vaults.

And this is where I have a hunch that some of those sessions might have been omitted because they just MIGHT "threaten the legacy" ("Hey, it cannot be that word seeps out that our beloved legendary artist X has done a session that was considered a dud and rejected outright!")

Though, from what I have seen in other discographies (not BN ), it sometimes can be frustrating to be able to look behind the curtains in that way. If you see that a session includes released tunes that sound like they are mostly run of the mill fare whereas those that are marked "rejected" or "unissued" sound like hot flagwavers then this makes you wonder what kind of clout the A&R men had over the artists at that time ...

[erwbol]

Audio samples are now enabled over at CD Japan for all albums with unreleased material.