Classic Blue Notes on SHM-CD

[jazzbo]

Thanks for that assessment Stefan.

[erwbol]

Any further comments on the sonic benefits of Shorter's " JuJu" and "All seeing eye" and Hill's "Grassroots"

My McMaster Juju sounds fragile with splashy cymbals, I'd forgotten it sounded this poor

My RVG ASE sounds basically ok , I'd be hoping for a clearer bass and improved sound stage.

Grassroots Conn sounds pinched and nasal, very narrow sound stage and brittle. Not a good combo, it's no wonder I've played this so little. The music I like but can easily see that if improved it would be spun more often.

These are the only editions I have of these sessions ( along with many other BN dates). I've generally avoided upgrade fever but the down side of my wonderful new DAC is that it reveals all, which some times isn't a good thing.

Which McMaster "JuJu" do you have? The 1st (no alternate takes), the 2nd (alternate takes) or the 3rd (alternate takes with SBM) remaster?

2nd - alternates, no sign of SBM on disc etc. I've had the SHM CD for a week now and it certainly sounds much better. I realise that relatively poor sound of the McMaster had put me off listening to it over the years. I have plenty of time for almost all CD transfers be they McMasters, RVG , Larry Walsh or what ever. Very few sound bad. I think that's largely down to my HiFi being pretty well balanced.

I own the 1st JuJu McMaster from 1987 (no alternate takes). Today I listened to both that and the SHM and felt the McMaster was preferable. It allows the music to breath and I did not find the sound 'fragile with splashy cymbals' as Clunky describes his 2nd McMaster. Different mastering for the 1st and 2nd McMaster?

And take the ballad Infant Eyes from Speak No Evil. The way Wayne's sax slowly, fragilely undulates while stating the melody is ruined on all physical copies but the McMaster. The HD Tracks 24bit/192kHz FLACs are a different matter. Most Shorter BNs are now available and these FLACs are much more dynamic than the SHMs.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

I own the 1st JuJu McMaster from 1987 (no alternate takes). Today I listened to both that and the SHM and felt the McMaster was preferable. It allows the music to breath and I did not find the sound 'fragile with splashy cymbals' as Clunky describes his 2nd McMaster. Different mastering for the 1st and 2nd McMaster?

And take the ballad Infant Eyes from Speak No Evil. The way Wayne's sax slowly, fragilely undulates while stating the melody is ruined on all physical copies but the McMaster. The HD Tracks 24bit/192kHz FLACs are a different matter. Most Shorter BNs are now available and these FLACs are much more dynamic than the SHMs.

Different mastering on all three versions as far as I can tell. Now that I think about it, the 3rd mastering might not have had "SBM" written on it. I seem to remember that difference between the 2nd and 3rd masterings is the location of the alternates. The 2nd remaster had the alternate following the issued take and the 3rd remaster had them at the end.

[etherbored]

I own the 1st JuJu McMaster from 1987 (no alternate takes). Today I listened to both that and the SHM and felt the McMaster was preferable. It allows the music to breath and I did not find the sound 'fragile with splashy cymbals' as Clunky describes his 2nd McMaster. Different mastering for the 1st and 2nd McMaster?

And take the ballad Infant Eyes from Speak No Evil. The way Wayne's sax slowly, fragilely undulates while stating the melody is ruined on all physical copies but the McMaster. The HD Tracks 24bit/192kHz FLACs are a different matter. Most Shorter BNs are now available and these FLACs are much more dynamic than the SHMs.

erwbol - very interesting. is this observation through speakers or headphones? which make/model?

[erwbol]

I own the 1st JuJu McMaster from 1987 (no alternate takes). Today I listened to both that and the SHM and felt the McMaster was preferable. It allows the music to breath and I did not find the sound 'fragile with splashy cymbals' as Clunky describes his 2nd McMaster. Different mastering for the 1st and 2nd McMaster?

And take the ballad Infant Eyes from Speak No Evil. The way Wayne's sax slowly, fragilely undulates while stating the melody is ruined on all physical copies but the McMaster. The HD Tracks 24bit/192kHz FLACs are a different matter. Most Shorter BNs are now available and these FLACs are much more dynamic than the SHMs.

erwbol - very interesting. is this observation through speakers or headphones? which make/model?

I have a Marantz CD6003. link

I use Sennheiser HD650 headphones and an old NAD 312 amp. Van Den Hul cables.

Nothing high end or fancy.

I currently listen to headphones only out of necessity. My old apartment was not well isolated for sound. Last year I moved and in the future I will buy speakers again and upgrade my amp, probably to a Marantz.

I currently do not have the means to make the most of those HD Tracks Flac files. I sometimes listen to them by connecting my Sennheisers to my iMac, so it was just a simple observation about the Shorter FLACs being more dynamic than these two SHMs.

Edited March 5, 2014 by erwbol

[Clunky]

I own the 1st JuJu McMaster from 1987 (no alternate takes). Today I listened to both that and the SHM and felt the McMaster was preferable. It allows the music to breath and I did not find the sound 'fragile with splashy cymbals' as Clunky describes his 2nd McMaster. Different mastering for the 1st and 2nd McMaster?

And take the ballad Infant Eyes from Speak No Evil. The way Wayne's sax slowly, fragilely undulates while stating the melody is ruined on all physical copies but the McMaster. The HD Tracks 24bit/192kHz FLACs are a different matter. Most Shorter BNs are now available and these FLACs are much more dynamic than the SHMs.

erwbol - very interesting. is this observation through speakers or headphones? which make/model?

I have a Marantz CD6003. link

I use Sennheiser HD650 headphones and an old NAD 312 amp. Van Den Hul cables.

Nothing high end or fancy.

I currently listen to headphones only out of necessity. My old apartment was not well isolated for sound. Last year I moved and in the future I will buy speakers again and upgrade my amp, probably to a Marantz.

I currently do not have the means to make the most of those HD Tracks Flac files. I sometimes listen to them by connecting my Sennheisers to my iMac, so it was just a simple observation about the Shorter FLACs being more dynamic than these two SHMs.

Very interesting how different systems can render the sound. I found the SHM of Speak No Evil to run a very close second to Music Matters 45rpm 2LP set ( I only bought the SHM for the alternates , which really aren't worth it I now realise). Both the SHM and MM45rpm easily better my McMaster of SNE. Smoother sounding and more dynamic. Regarding JuJu the McMaster edition sounds as if the cymbals gave been turned up very significantly in the mix giving a rasping quality to the sound. The SHM sounds again calmer and modestly better soundstage. As indicated above I have had very few complaints regarding poor sounding BN CDs as the vast majority have sounded just fine.

My Living Voice speakers and Sugden class A amp are pretty revealing , just occasionally a bit too forward sounding which of course would make a bright mastering sound brighter still possibly pushing it ' over the edge' in terms of acceptability.

[erwbol]

I own the 1st JuJu McMaster from 1987 (no alternate takes). Today I listened to both that and the SHM and felt the McMaster was preferable. It allows the music to breath and I did not find the sound 'fragile with splashy cymbals' as Clunky describes his 2nd McMaster. Different mastering for the 1st and 2nd McMaster?

And take the ballad Infant Eyes from Speak No Evil. The way Wayne's sax slowly, fragilely undulates while stating the melody is ruined on all physical copies but the McMaster. The HD Tracks 24bit/192kHz FLACs are a different matter. Most Shorter BNs are now available and these FLACs are much more dynamic than the SHMs.

erwbol - very interesting. is this observation through speakers or headphones? which make/model? I have a Marantz CD6003. link

I use Sennheiser HD650 headphones and an old NAD 312 amp. Van Den Hul cables.

Nothing high end or fancy.

I currently listen to headphones only out of necessity. My old apartment was not well isolated for sound. Last year I moved and in the future I will buy speakers again and upgrade my amp, probably to a Marantz.

I currently do not have the means to make the most of those HD Tracks Flac files. I sometimes listen to them by connecting my Sennheisers to my iMac, so it was just a simple observation about the Shorter FLACs being more dynamic than these two SHMs.

Very interesting how different systems can render the sound. I found the SHM of Speak No Evil to run a very close second to Music Matters 45rpm 2LP set ( I only bought the SHM for the alternates , which really aren't worth it I now realise). Both the SHM and MM45rpm easily better my McMaster of SNE. Smoother sounding and more dynamic. Regarding JuJu the McMaster edition sounds as if the cymbals gave been turned up very significantly in the mix giving a rasping quality to the sound. The SHM sounds again calmer and modestly better soundstage. As indicated above I have had very few complaints regarding poor sounding BN CDs as the vast majority have sounded just fine.

My Living Voice speakers and Sugden class A amp are pretty revealing , just occasionally a bit too forward sounding which of course would make a bright mastering sound brighter still possibly pushing it ' over the edge' in terms of acceptability.

Interesting how someone who owns Music Matters 45rpm LPs can rate these particular SHMs so highly. I intend to keep all versions I have now until I once again own a speaker system. I'm curious how that will change my perception of what's preferable.

Sometimes I feel I focus too much on detail. Today, I went back to Infant Eyes as a benchmark. I always had trouble connecting emotionally with the RVG, and when I got a second hand McMaster I thought the difference on this track was particularly startling. Not in regards to detail, but I guess allowing the music to breath if that makes sense. Later I was able to get a fairly priced mint BN Works and thought perhaps it was a bit more detailed.

Anyway, if I wasn't on headphones all the time the loudness of some discs would probably trouble me less.

PS I meant of course all physical digital copies in my original post.

Edited March 5, 2014 by erwbol

[Stefan Wood]

Received the Eric Dolphy this afternoon. Yeah, this one stands out as the best version on cd to date. Crystal clear, like it was recorded today.

[erwbol]

The Dolphy is very good indeed. I gave it another spin this morning. I'm going back to simply listening to and enjoying my collection.

[Deepak]

I own the 1st JuJu McMaster from 1987 (no alternate takes). Today I listened to both that and the SHM and felt the McMaster was preferable. It allows the music to breath and I did not find the sound 'fragile with splashy cymbals' as Clunky describes his 2nd McMaster. Different mastering for the 1st and 2nd McMaster?

And take the ballad Infant Eyes from Speak No Evil. The way Wayne's sax slowly, fragilely undulates while stating the melody is ruined on all physical copies but the McMaster. The HD Tracks 24bit/192kHz FLACs are a different matter. Most Shorter BNs are now available and these FLACs are much more dynamic than the SHMs.

erwbol - very interesting. is this observation through speakers or headphones? which make/model? I have a Marantz CD6003. link

I use Sennheiser HD650 headphones and an old NAD 312 amp. Van Den Hul cables.

Nothing high end or fancy.

I currently listen to headphones only out of necessity. My old apartment was not well isolated for sound. Last year I moved and in the future I will buy speakers again and upgrade my amp, probably to a Marantz.

I currently do not have the means to make the most of those HD Tracks Flac files. I sometimes listen to them by connecting my Sennheisers to my iMac, so it was just a simple observation about the Shorter FLACs being more dynamic than these two SHMs.

Very interesting how different systems can render the sound. I found the SHM of Speak No Evil to run a very close second to Music Matters 45rpm 2LP set ( I only bought the SHM for the alternates , which really aren't worth it I now realise). Both the SHM and MM45rpm easily better my McMaster of SNE. Smoother sounding and more dynamic. Regarding JuJu the McMaster edition sounds as if the cymbals gave been turned up very significantly in the mix giving a rasping quality to the sound. The SHM sounds again calmer and modestly better soundstage. As indicated above I have had very few complaints regarding poor sounding BN CDs as the vast majority have sounded just fine.

My Living Voice speakers and Sugden class A amp are pretty revealing , just occasionally a bit too forward sounding which of course would make a bright mastering sound brighter still possibly pushing it ' over the edge' in terms of acceptability.

OBX speakers by any chance? I loved the sound of those speakers when I heard them at a dealer. Very attractive as well.

[Clunky]

I own the 1st JuJu McMaster from 1987 (no alternate takes). Today I listened to both that and the SHM and felt the McMaster was preferable. It allows the music to breath and I did not find the sound 'fragile with splashy cymbals' as Clunky describes his 2nd McMaster. Different mastering for the 1st and 2nd McMaster?

And take the ballad Infant Eyes from Speak No Evil. The way Wayne's sax slowly, fragilely undulates while stating the melody is ruined on all physical copies but the McMaster. The HD Tracks 24bit/192kHz FLACs are a different matter. Most Shorter BNs are now available and these FLACs are much more dynamic than the SHMs.

erwbol - very interesting. is this observation through speakers or headphones? which make/model? I have a Marantz CD6003. link

I use Sennheiser HD650 headphones and an old NAD 312 amp. Van Den Hul cables.

Nothing high end or fancy.

I currently listen to headphones only out of necessity. My old apartment was not well isolated for sound. Last year I moved and in the future I will buy speakers again and upgrade my amp, probably to a Marantz.

I currently do not have the means to make the most of those HD Tracks Flac files. I sometimes listen to them by connecting my Sennheisers to my iMac, so it was just a simple observation about the Shorter FLACs being more dynamic than these two SHMs.

Very interesting how different systems can render the sound. I found the SHM of Speak No Evil to run a very close second to Music Matters 45rpm 2LP set ( I only bought the SHM for the alternates , which really aren't worth it I now realise). Both the SHM and MM45rpm easily better my McMaster of SNE. Smoother sounding and more dynamic. Regarding JuJu the McMaster edition sounds as if the cymbals gave been turned up very significantly in the mix giving a rasping quality to the sound. The SHM sounds again calmer and modestly better soundstage. As indicated above I have had very few complaints regarding poor sounding BN CDs as the vast majority have sounded just fine.

My Living Voice speakers and Sugden class A amp are pretty revealing , just occasionally a bit too forward sounding which of course would make a bright mastering sound brighter still possibly pushing it ' over the edge' in terms of acceptability.

OBX speakers by any chance? I loved the sound of those speakers when I heard them at a dealer. Very attractive as well.

No IBX, sounded good enough without the crossover boxes, which I really didn't wish to accommodate

[Justin V]

Received the Eric Dolphy this afternoon. Yeah, this one stands out as the best version on cd to date. Crystal clear, like it was recorded today.

As someone who'd never heard Out to Lunch before the SHM reissue, I'm curious as to how the sound of the current reissue differs from that of the previous reissues. It really does sound like it could've been recorded yesterday.

Is there any word yet on what's next in the series?

[jazzbo]

I got in some of the most recent batch today, including the Coleman, the Hill, the Gales and the McLean and the two ELVEENS. Will hopefully be listening over the next few days (I don't get to listen to too much jazz over the weekends, as I don't get time off from my "job").

[street singer]

I got in some of the most recent batch today, including the Coleman, the Hill, the Gales and the McLean and the two ELVEENS. Will hopefully be listening over the next few days (I don't get to listen to too much jazz over the weekends, as I don't get time off from my "job").

These are the ones that I picked up as well. In addition, I also got Young's 'Contrasts', Donaldson's 'Midnight Creeper', Patton's 'Understanding' and Wilson's 'Blue Mode'. Waiting on a big ol' box from CDJapan to arrive as I type...

I've picked up about 20 or so from the previous batches and really enjoy the sound of them.

[Stefan Wood]

Received the Larry Young "Contrasts" disc. Again, better than the Mosaic in that there is more depth and clarity. Haven't heard this session in a long while, and forgot how damn good this is. Up there with Unity.

[Rooster_Ties]

Speaking of which, what are he odds of getting an expanded Unity with the other alternates?

Can somebody remind me of what circulates? - I've never heard the complete session myself (but have been tempted to try and track it down).

[RiRiIII]

A question regarding the new SHM-CD of Milt Jackson

http://www.universal-music.co.jp/p/TYCJ-81022

against the RVG 2001 (Wizard of the Vibes):

The SHM has 19 tracks:

1 LILLIE / Milt Jackson x 2 TAHITI / Milt Jackson x 3 WHAT'S NEW / Milt Jackson x 4 BAGS' GROOVE / Milt Jackson x 5 ON THE SCENE / Milt Jackson x 6 WILLOW WEEP FOR ME / Milt Jackson o 7 CRISS CROSS / Milt Jackson o 8 ERONEL / Milt Jackson o 9 MISTERIOSO / Milt Jackson x 10 EVIDENCE / Milt Jackson x 11 LILLIE / Milt Jackson x 12 FOUR IN ONE / Milt Jackson o 13 WHAT'S NEW / Milt Jackson x 14 DON'T GET AROUND MUCH ANYMORE / Milt Jackson x 15 DON'T GET AROUND MUCH ANYMORE / Milt Jackson x 16 CRISS CROSS / Milt Jackson o 17 ALL THE THINGS YOU ARE / Milt Jackson x 18 I SHOULD CARE / Milt Jackson x 19 I SHOULD CARE / Milt Jackson x

While the RVG has 17 tracks:

1. Tahiti x 2. Lillie x 3. Bags'groove x 4. What's New x 5. Don't Get Around Much Anymore x 6. On the Scene x 7. Lillie (Alternate Take) x 8. What's New (Alternate Take) x 9. Don't Get Around Much Anymore (Alternate Take) x 10. Evidence x 11. Misterioso x 12. Epistrophy o 13. I Mean You o 14. Misterioso (Alternate Take) o 15. All the Things You Are x 16. I Should Care x 17. I Should Care (Alternate Take) x

With (o) I noted the tracks that are unique to each of them.

The RVG has the following sessions:

1. April 7,1952 session with John Lewis,Lou Donaldson,Percy Heath and Kenny Clarke

2. July 2,1948 : Milt Jackson,Thelonious Monk,John Simmons and Shadow Wilson.

... while the SHM-CD adds also 5 [out of the 9] tracks from the session from July 23, 1951 (which is included complete in the RVG Monk Genius Vol 2 CD), and omits 3 tracks from the July 2, 1948.

I suppose the missing tracks from the RVG CD as well as the remaining from the July 23, 1951 session are included in the Monk Genius SHM-CDs.

I guess the RVG CDs splitting was more logical since it included complete sessions. Or there is another base for SHM-CDs tracklisting? Or to make us re-buy all three of them?

Alex

[erwbol]

The SHMs retain the order of the 12inch LPs and add bonus tracks. The two Monks and the Milt Jackson cover the complete sessions.

The main reason to buy this material again is the SHMs sound better than the RVGs. In my opinion considerably so.

[jlhoots]

For me the main reason to buy these is if you don't have the material.

Fortunately I've only had to buy 4 so far.

[erwbol]

I have just received my copy of Somethin' Else, the only one I ordered.

I have to agree with everything erwbol say, it sounds wonderful.

I can't imagine why the new take of Autumn Leaves was not issued before. Very similar to the 'old' version but it just misses out on the magical ending that the version we all know has, with Miles alone floating over the rhythm section.

Instead Miles plays with Cannon at the end. I suspect they did another take to improve the ending.

If you love this album as I do, buy it!

Other opinions on how essential this alternate take of Autumn Leaves is? I already have the hybrid SACD, so I won't need the SHM for the classic album itself.

[jazzbo]

My first few listenings to this disc and the alternate have me saying "It's not really an essential alternate." As noted above it's quite similar to the selected and released version.

[erwbol]

Thanks, Lon. I think I'll pass on some of the new alternates then.

[erwbol]

One thing I am wondering is how often remasters are made not from tape but from a common first digital transfer from the tape. So that 'straight' digital master becomes the common source of different remasters. Only a guess.

Here is a video of Bernie Grundman talking about the current transferring of the Blue Note catalog to high resolution digital for archiving. The project has been going on for four years and these are the transfers being used for the HD Tracks downloads, the "Blue Note 100" vinyl, and almost certainly the Japanese SHM-CDs as well.

http://youtu.be/d8o0Gl7XUT0

More here: analogplanet.com

(I found a link to this video on the Hoffman board)

Edited March 26, 2014 by erwbol

[David Ayers]

Cool. Thanks for the link.

[erwbol]

In the second video you can also see some Atlantic Coltrane tape reels, and Grundman discusses the difference between listening to the original tapes and consumer products. He mentions the ORG The Shape Of Jazz To Come and how well that turned out sonically. Grundman did the My Favourite Things, The Shape Of Jazz To Come and The Bridge hybrid SACDs & vinyl for ORG Music.