The 18th century symphonic minuet - the weakest link?

[Guy Berger]

I was at a concert of Mozart's final three symphonies - all masterpieces, of course - and each time we hit one of the minuets, thought, this is kind of predictable, routine, and dare I say cheesy (something I wouldn't say about the other 3 movements in each piece). Obviously Haydn started to move things in a different direction, and by the time Beethoven got going it became a non-issue, but any thoughts from other listeners?

[A Lark Ascending]

Perhaps we're conditioned by subsequent Romantic ideas to expect everything to be weighty. In their time I expect they were there to provide balance. And given the nature of the situations where they were first performed - probably with a lot of people with limited interest in music - I'd imagine they allowed for a wide range of expectations to be addressed. A bit like the jazz bands of the 20s and 30s doing 'hot' and 'sweet' numbers.

The idea of writing uncompromisingly intense pieces for posterity comes from a later era.

[Chuck Nessa]

The idea of writing uncompromisingly intense pieces for posterity comes from a later era.

Never heard the Goldberg Variations?

[A Lark Ascending]

Always waiting to pounce.

[Guy Berger]

Perhaps we're conditioned by subsequent Romantic ideas to expect everything to be weighty. In their time I expect they were there to provide balance. And given the nature of the situations where they were first performed - probably with a lot of people with limited interest in music - I'd imagine they allowed for a wide range of expectations to be addressed. A bit like the jazz bands of the 20s and 30s doing 'hot' and 'sweet' numbers.

The idea of writing uncompromisingly intense pieces for posterity comes from a later era.

Bev, I hear where you're coming from. I like plenty of catchy, "light and easy" finales from that period. But I do feel like the minuet is probably the last segment of the 4-movement structure to break out of the routine.

[A Lark Ascending]

Perhaps we're conditioned by subsequent Romantic ideas to expect everything to be weighty. In their time I expect they were there to provide balance. And given the nature of the situations where they were first performed - probably with a lot of people with limited interest in music - I'd imagine they allowed for a wide range of expectations to be addressed. A bit like the jazz bands of the 20s and 30s doing 'hot' and 'sweet' numbers.

The idea of writing uncompromisingly intense pieces for posterity comes from a later era.

Bev, I hear where you're coming from. I like plenty of catchy, "light and easy" finales from that period. But I do feel like the minuet is probably the last segment of the 4-movement structure to break out of the routine.

Well I too find those minuets the least engaging part of 18thC symphonies (interesting that you don't get them in most concertos) - but I suspect that comes from expectations created by later music. I'd have thought they were there to give a few moments of relaxation. For the alert listener it must have been a pretty intense experience following a piece of music you were likely never to hear again.

Quite a bit of earlier music - 17th and 18thC - amounted to mainly strings of dance based movements. I'd imagine the minuet is part of that evolution.

The movement that I generally find least engaging is the last. Again, expectations built up from later music leads me to expect some intense conclusion. Generally 18thC symphonies never quite match the power of the first and slow movements. Of course there are exceptions, the Jupiter standing out there.