Anyone for Bruckner?

[David Ayers]

Although Bruckner is apparently regarded as box-office poison his symphonies always dot the orchestral calendars. I don't ever remember a complete Bruckner series though in these parts, and I can only remember going to hear a Bruckner symphony once - the beautiful and happily incomplete 9th. Yet like most folks I am familiar with his symphonies from numerous recordings, and there seem to always be cycles in progress, often on SACD for some reason, as well as several box-set series from the distant or recent past (was Jochum the first?).

So is Bruckner successful in recordings but much less so in concert? Is anyone following recent Bruckner recordings? Does anyone go to hear Bruckner in concert much or ever? Is Bruckner performed more often in Germany and Austria? Just trying to get the measure of 'Bruckner today'.

[J.A.W.]

When Bernard Haitink was chief conductor of the Concertgebouw Orchestra (1957-1988) he was the Bruckner champion in the Netherlands. I attended several Concertgebouw concerts in the 1980s, with him conducting Bruckner. Wonderful experiences in a great concert hall. My favourite Bruckner symphonies are Nos.7-9, followed by 4-6.

[A Lark Ascending]

Sometime around 1997 I saw an Austrian youth Orchestra play Bruckner 8 in Innsbruck. If there had been a screen in front of the stage I'd have not have guessed they were a youth orchestra - very moving. I imagine many of those players are well settled within the worlds major orchestras by now.

My own favourite is No. 5. For some bizarre reason Bruckner was one of the first classical composers I explored - coming from prog-rock I think I just wanted long pieces of music and boy did he fit the bill!

He never seems to have caught on like Mahler - maybe because his music seems far more controlled and unified where Mahler's is quite kaleidoscopic and quixotic; or possibly because Mahler fits the Romantic hero struggling with his demons more with music that is full of non-musical references. I can't imagine Ken Russell making much of a shy, devout Catholic with an unfortunate habit of falling for girls much to young for him.

[alocispepraluger102]

thx. for the reminder. i've been away from bruckner far too long.

i am currently enjoying mahler 7 by gennady rozdestvensky with the state symphony of russia and capella choir. i couldn't wish for a finer interpretation or performance.

Edited August 18, 2013 by alocispepraluger102

[Rooster_Ties]

I've never been able to completely wrap my ears around his symphonies -- try as I might over the years. To me, at least, they're all incredibly long and sprawling (and boring) -- and their impact on me is much the same as Mahler very early on (when I was in my 20's), before my "Mahler" light bulb went on (and I suddenly 'got it' - the trigger was singing/performing in the chorus of Mahler 8 - and suddenly all Mahler made sense). Which is to say that no similar Bruckner light bulb has ever gone on for me.

BUT -- he has a String Quintet (standard quartet plus a second viola, as I recall), which I adore! -- and his choral motets are divine too (both to sing, and to listen to). Seem to recall a bit of other chamber music of his over the years that floated my boat considerably more than his orchestral efforts – which all leave me cold.

[A Lark Ascending]

There's an article in the recent BBC Music Magazine about a new opera house in Linz - seems to be lots of Bruckner around there:

http://www.brucknerhaus.at/www1/de/programm/prog_kal.php?year=2013&month=9&lng=ger

I once took a detour on a driving holiday in Austria to visit his grave! Not sure why.

Less disastrous than my diversion a few days later down to Klagenfurt to see where Mahler composed some of his symphonies. I was so late I had to take the first camp site available. Only after the barrier came down behind me did I realise that no-one was wearing any clothes. That image haunts me whenever I hear Mahler 7.

[Blue Train]

I like Bruckner and agree about Haitink & Jochum. I think Buckner's problem are two-fold there are so many revisions of his works (there are 6 versions of the 3rd.)....and he couldn't make up his mind which was the definitive version. Then there is the size of the orchestration and length of several of them.

Any thoughts on the Stanislaw Skrowaczewski set?

Edited August 20, 2013 by Blue Train

[Larry Kart]

Composer Robert Simpson's book about Bruckner:

http://www.amazon.com/Essence-Bruckner-Robert-Wilfred-Simpson/dp/0575011890

is among the best such books ever and should explain everything about how his music works, if you're among those who are in a place to get the message.

Simpson's book about Carl Nielsen is no less superb.

http://www.amazon.com/Carl-Nielsen-Symphonist-Robert-Simpson/dp/0900707968

I would add that unless you're among the lucky ones who get Bruckner right off, there may be no arguably great composer whose music is harder to grasp. For one thing, he requires that one have a very long-term memory for thematic echoes/returns and resemblances, longer than even most sensitive listeners tend to possess. But there are, Brucknerians feel, immense long-term rewards for learning to tune in on the attention span that Bruckner calls for.

[Rooster_Ties]

Is there really any one Bruckner symphony that is considerably better liked than all or most of the others?

Which one is his Beethoven's 5th (or 9th, or 7th, or 3rd)?? Which one is his Dvorak's 9th (or 7th)??

It may be that since none of them really grabbed hold of me - I've never spent enough time with any one of them, enough to really get it in my ears.

[A Lark Ascending]

I think Buckner's problem are two-fold there are so many revisions of his works (there are 6 versions of the 3rd.)....and he couldn't make up his mind which was the definitive version. Then there is the size of the orchestration and length of several of them.

The different revisions are puzzling (though a godsend to those who like squabbling about versions - you get to quibble about versions of versions).

But I don't see how the size of the orchestration is a problem if you take the music on its own terms. I'd say Bruckner does a fine job balancing the passages where all is blazing, with beautifully delicate moments that can often be quite pastoral and serene. There's a lovely passage in the second movement of the Fifth where a flute picks up a theme from the first movement and just plays it achingly. And a recurring passage in the slow movement of the Eighth that sounds like Vaughan Williams!

As for length, well I can see that as a problem for people who prefer shorter pieces. But people who like music that unfolds over a long period of time could do worse than persevere with Bruckner.

Is there really any one Bruckner symphony that is considerably better liked than all or most of the others?

Which one is his Beethoven's 5th (or 9th, or 7th, or 3rd)?? Which one is his Dvorak's 9th (or 7th)??

It may be that since none of them really grabbed hold of me - I've never spent enough time with any one of them, enough to really get it in my ears.

I think the 4th gets played most but that might be because in the LP age it could fit on one LP.

The 7th is very popular too and has some wonderful music.

5 + 8 are my favourites but both very long.

I also really like the 9th - has that same feel of drifting off into the ether that Mahler 9 has. Bruckner never finished it so it ends on the slow movement (though Rattle has recently recorded a reconstruction of the 4th).

1, 2, 3 and 6 (and the two pre-symphonies) are probably best left until later.

Edited August 20, 2013 by A Lark Ascending

[David Ayers]

Bruckner is pretty different to Mahler - I think it may be Knussen or Colin Matthews who said when he was young he was all for Mahler - events in every bar - but now it is Bruckner, all about shape and build. Discussion of Bruckner conducting is all about managing to graduate the climaxes.

Simpson's books on the symphony are a must, although his symphonies are not a must - IMO, YMMV.

The usual suspects, Bruckner-wise, are 4,7,8,9 with occasional outings for 1.

[Blue Train]

I think Buckner's problem are two-fold there are so many revisions of his works (there are 6 versions of the 3rd.)....and he couldn't make up his mind which was the definitive version. Then there is the size of the orchestration and length of several of them.

The different revisions are puzzling (though a godsend to those who like squabbling about versions - you get to quibble about versions of versions).

But I don't see how the size of the orchestration is a problem if you take the music on its own terms. I'd say Bruckner does a fine job balancing the passages where all is blazing, with beautifully delicate moments that can often be quite pastoral and serene. There's a lovely passage in the second movement of the Fifth where a flute picks up a theme from the first movement and just plays it achingly. And a recurring passage in the slow movement of the Eighth that sounds like Vaughan Williams!

As for length, well I can see that as a problem for people who prefer shorter pieces. But people who like music that unfolds over a long period of time could do worse than persevere with Bruckner.

The length is a big issue for those that have to pay for them being performed, which goes to why he's not as performed as much.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Blue Train

[David Ayers]

Oh I wasn't really quite right on 1 - here are the stats from the Proms archive...

• String Quintet in F major featured in 1 event/s
• Symphony No. 1 in C minor featured in 1 event/s
• Symphony No. 2 in C minor featured in 2 event/s
• Symphony No. 3 in D minor featured in 11 event/s
• Symphony No. 4 in E flat major 'Romantic' featured in 12 event/s
• Symphony No. 5 in B flat major featured in 11 event/s
• Symphony No. 6 in A major featured in 6 event/s
• Symphony No. 7 in E major featured in 23 event/s
• Symphony No. 8 in C minor (1890 version, ed. Nowak) featured in 19 event/s
• Symphony No. 9 in D minor featured in 17 event/s

Here's your Mahler syms, by way of comparison...

• Symphony No. 1 in D major featured in 25 event/s
• Symphony No. 1 in D major 'Titan' (with 'Blumine' movement) featured in 1 event/s
• Symphony No. 2 in C minor, 'Resurrection' featured in 17 event/s
• Symphony No. 3 in D minor featured in 12 event/s
• Symphony No. 3 in D minor (arr. Benjamin Britten) featured in 3 event/s
• Symphony No. 4 in G major featured in 25 event/s
• Symphony No. 5 in C sharp minor featured in 27 event/s
• Symphony No. 6 in A minor featured in 1 event/s
• Symphony No. 7 featured in 12 event/s
• Symphony No. 8 in E flat major 'Symphony of a Thousand' featured in 8 event/s
• Symphony No. 9 featured in 14 event/s
• Symphony No. 10 in F sharp minor featured in 6 event/s
• Symphony No. 10 in F sharp minor (performing version by Deryck Cooke)featured in 6 event/s
• Symphony No. 10 – Adagio featured in 1 event/s

[David Ayers]

Simpson, as we mentioned him, was an enemy of Glock whose rule at the proms he regarded as 'evil'. This archive tool is interesting in terms of the myth/reality of promotion/exclusion of individual composers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/archive

[A Lark Ascending]

The length is a big issue for those that have to pay for them being performed, which goes to why he's not as performed as much.

Ah, I see what you mean.

This archive tool is interesting in terms of the myth/reality of promotion/exclusion of individual composers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/archive

Fascinating. I see I was at Bruckner 9 on: (1977) Prom 11 - Monday 1 August, 7.30pm

[David Ayers]

Re. the performance stats for Mahler, I am surprised that his 6th falls so far behind the others - that is surely a Proms quirk... isn't it?

That's once in 110 years.

[A Lark Ascending]

Especially as they've done the Eighth 6 times - that must be more expensive than any Bruckner symphony to put on. Though perhaps a surer box office success - choral pieces seem to be popular and you'll probably get a lot of the choirs family buying tickets.

I'd imagine Bruckner stats would be much higher in the German speaking countries.

Edited August 20, 2013 by A Lark Ascending

[Blue Train]

With Mahler's 6th. Looking at 80-82 minutes and there is the problem about what order to play the middle two movements. It doesn't get played much for a reason.

[David Ayers]

Well, doesn't it get played much? I'm not sure. I've heard Boulez and Gergiev do it. LSO and LPO are both doing it next season in London. Philharmonia and BBCSO not. (a propos of Hans' remarks and of the thread topic, RCO are here doing Bruckner 4, 7 and 9 with Jansons...juicy prospect),

So two Mahler 6s in London in the same season, that I found - that's twice as many as in the entire history of the Proms!

[Larry Kart]

Simpson, as we mentioned him, was an enemy of Glock whose rule at the proms he regarded as 'evil'. This archive tool is interesting in terms of the myth/reality of promotion/exclusion of individual composers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/archive

About Simpson being opposed to Glock and Glock in general being an avant garde-inclined tyrant, David Wright emphatically says no:

http://www.wrightmusic.net/pdfs/william-glock-not-avante-garde.pdf

http://www.wrightmusic.net/pdfs/william-glock.pdf

OTOH, there's this, though I haven't read the Simpson book referred to here:

http://www.overgrownpath.com/2011/07/classical-music-beyond-twitter.html

[David Ayers]

Here's part of another review of that book

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v03/n19/hans-keller/national-institutions

[David Ayers]

Those are great links by the way.

[Blue Train]

Well, doesn't it get played much? I'm not sure. I've heard Boulez and Gergiev do it. LSO and LPO are both doing it next season in London. Philharmonia and BBCSO not. (a propos of Hans' remarks and of the thread topic, RCO are here doing Bruckner 4, 7 and 9 with Jansons...juicy prospect),

So two Mahler 6s in London in the same season, that I found - that's twice as many as in the entire history of the Proms!

I was comparing it to to Mahler's others on why it's not played much....and I am not limiting it to the UK.

[David Ayers]

Well, doesn't it get played much? I'm not sure. I've heard Boulez and Gergiev do it. LSO and LPO are both doing it next season in London. Philharmonia and BBCSO not. (a propos of Hans' remarks and of the thread topic, RCO are here doing Bruckner 4, 7 and 9 with Jansons...juicy prospect),

So two Mahler 6s in London in the same season, that I found - that's twice as many as in the entire history of the Proms!

I was comparing it to to Mahler's others on why it's not played much....and I am not limiting it to the UK.

But isn't it played much? That's what I wonder - I think the Proms stat looks like an aberration.

[Chuck Nessa]

An old friend said the problem Bruckner had with most folks was the complete lack of sex in his music. I always thought the strength of his music was his Christian zeal (not that I am advocating that) and the way inside for some might be thinking of the symphonies as orchestrations of giant organ solos.

I love lots of Bruckner, but it takes time to meld into his world. Unfortunately for Bev, historical conductors provide the best entry points.

If you are looking for a "way in" get the DG cd of Bruckner 4 conducted by Jochum. If that doesn't convince you, smoke some weed and play it again. :-)