Dootone and Crown Records reissues

[king ubu]

coming up:

[romualdo]

The Hamilton & Baker discs are from various previously released Pacific Jazz sessions (CD/Mosaic boxes)

The Hawkins looks interesting though it has been previously released on Boplicity - would have been nice if they had released the whole session (2 LP's The Hawk Sings & The Hawk Swings) on a single CD (or double)

[king ubu]

I wondered about the Chetty - and the Chico tunes did sound familiar - thanks for confirming!

There were two Hawk albums on Crown, right? I've got a rip-off of a rip-off somewhere, but am not really familiar with this (I often don't play those crappy things and wait for a chance to grab the real thing). The tracklist is short (six tunes), so this is only one LP being reissued:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Hawk-Swings-Coleman-Hawkins/dp/B00FPQZLR6/

Ah, yes, there it is:

http://www.freshsoundrecords.com/the_hawk_swings_-_the_crown_sessions_2_lps_on_1_cd-cd-5791.html

So they do Vol. 2 first? Let's hope they come around to "Coleman Hawkins and His Orchestra" eventually, too!

[Big Beat Steve]

Look out, everybody .. if you move seamlessly from Dootone into the Crown label without any distinction between whether the said Crown releases actually were genuine Modern/RPM recordings or maybe recordings from other labels that somewhow had ended up with Crown for "second time around marketing" in the form of reissues for the budget market or whatever, then the implications of where the masters (possibly available for reissue) may be and what is available where else and from which primary source may change drastically ...

Edited November 5, 2013 by Big Beat Steve

[king ubu]

Had to read that sentence twice ... but yeah, of course. We all know that what they say are the masters often aren't, even with official Blue Note stuff (or else the SHM alternate take incident would have taken place 10 or 15 years ago, I guess? Or do we have confirmation by now they are actually throwing out rejects?)

Anyway, you're right of course. But operating under the assumption that these Dootone reissues are official (even if PD), they still are more to my liking than the Fresh Sound option. I've not yet gotten any of the actual Dootones though, but I want at least the Dexter!

[Big Beat Steve]

What I meant was something else, King Ubu:

The Dootone reissues by Ace of course are legit, though this is a pointless aspect since they were made in a time frame that is and remains P.D. in Europe - what counts, though, is that Ace has the Dootone files, it seems, and therefore is more likely to come up with alternates, acetates. etc. Which might make for potentially interesting reissues.

But I cannot see any link between Dootone and the last three items linked and shown above (Hawk, Baker, Hamilton). Except that they are also reissued on Boplicity. I am not sure if the Hawkins LPs actually were ORIGINALLY recorded for Crown (i.e. Modern/RPM) but apparently (from what has been said above) the Baker/Hamilton items are rehashes of material originally recorded for Pacific Jazz. No idea how Crown came by them back then (but if you go by some of the semi-anonymous V.A. Crown samplers released it was no isolated incident) but at any rate they seem to have been part of a "budget line" marketing plot of REissuing items that had already been release elsewhere before. Nice to have as an oddity from those times if you can grab an orignal LP but IMO at bit pointless as a reissue of the actual album right now, given that those tracks ought to be around elsewhere in their Pacific Jazz packagings. Now could Crown possibly have had the first-generation masters for those Baker/Hamilton recordings in their vaults at all? Did PJ relinquish ownership of those masters to Crown?

I wonder if Ace are doing themselves a real service by going that route because IMO it detracts a bit from their usually thoughtfully produced (and fully packed) CD reissues from their Modern/RPM vaults.

Could it be that Ace haven't quite come to grips yet as to how to best repackage original LP releases for reissue instead of 78s?

[romualdo]

The Hawkins material appears to have originated from a Modern session(s) - Only two titles (of 10) were released on a Modern V/A LP "Jazz All Stars" M7027/MST827

The Lord Discography lists all 10 titles as being recorded in 1960 (very non specific) - may have been more than one session date?

All titles were initially released on Crown (AFAIK)

[Big Beat Steve]

So if Boplicity had packed their CDs the usual ACE way the TWO Hawkins LPs would indeed have made up a nice reissue CD (as stated earlier). One LP only on one CD only is a bit skimpy. Unless the actual CD reissue includes alternates, etc.

[king ubu]

Ooops, sorry, Steve!

Guess we should rather start a new thread for these ... I just kinda went from the looks and didn't really think about the labels in question.

[crisp]

Guess we should rather start a new thread for these ...

(Although I admit I didn't know about this Dootone thread when I posted it.)

[Big Beat Steve]

Guess we should rather start a new thread for these ...

(Although I admit I didn't know about this Dootone thread when I posted it.)

And you did throw Dootone and Crown together too.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

i actually think ace uk possess the crown masters, all of them? i dont know/i doubt it. but i think they ace guys brokered a deal in the 80s with one of the surviving bihari bros. i have no idea on the details.

[Big Beat Steve]

That's right. They have the Modern/RPM files (which is what Crown - the budget spinoff of Modern/RPM - ultimately is).

My question/doubt above concerned the situation of the Chet Baker/Chico Hamilton releases that clearly were not RECORDED by Modern/RPM/Crown.

Hamilton's CLP5310, for example, is a combination of 1956 recordings first released on Pacific Jazz PJ1220 and World Pacific WP1231. So came these masters to be owned or LEASED by Crown?

[king ubu]

Guess we should rather start a new thread for these ...

(Although I admit I didn't know about this Dootone thread when I posted it.)

And you did throw Dootone and Crown together too.

so the moderator who locked that thread could re-open it and rename it so we have our Crown thread ...

[J.A.W.]

Guess we should rather start a new thread for these ...

(Although I admit I didn't know about this Dootone thread when I posted it.)

And you did throw Dootone and Crown together too.

so the moderator who locked that thread could re-open it and rename it so we have our Crown thread ...

Or, since Crown is already being discussed here, he could rename this thread

[Big Beat Steve]

Would be a bit of a pity since the actual topic WAS Dootone - a label not discussed too often overall (whereas Crown has been discussed elsewhere too). Or he would have to rename it "Dootone and Crown JAZZ reissues on Boplicity" make it bulletproof.

[Big Beat Steve]

Arggghhhh ....

Are we discussing original Dootone and Crown releases here?

Please, mods, now that you did change the title of this thread, why not change it the way I suggested?

Dootone and Crown reissues on Boplicity

THIS is what it's all about, isn't it, after all?

So why be ambiguous?

[J.A.W.]

Arggghhhh ....

Are we discussing original Dootone and Crown releases here?

Please, mods, now that you did change the title of this thread, why not change it the way I suggested?

Dootone and Crown reissues on Boplicity

THIS is what it's all about, isn't it, after all?

So why be ambiguous?

I agree with your suggestion, that would be the correct thread title.

[Daniel A]

My suggestion is to change the thread title to "Jazz records".

Seriously, though, I agree with the suggestion, too.

[king ubu]

Ah, ambiguity, cherished salt of life, beloved sweetness of thought ... and all gone now, ohimè!

[crisp]

Hmm, but what if Ace owns more than two jazz labels and starts reissuing them on Boplicity as well? This thread title could get pretty long...

[gmonahan]

I was recently in Japan where I bought three Crown discs reissued by the Japanese label P-Vine. As is usually the case with Japanese reissues, these were true to the originals right down to the LP track lineup and cheap looking album covers both front and back. I got one by Woody Herman (The New Swingin' Herman Herd), one by Bob Brookmeyer (Bob Brookmeyer featuring John Williams and Red Mitchell), and one supposedly by Gerry Mulligan (The West Coast Jazz of Gerry Mulligan). Once I got home and was actually able to look them all up, I realized that the Herman was the only one that appeared to be more or less original to Crown. The Brookmeyer was a Pacific Jazz ripoff I already had on the Mosaic Select, and the Mulligan was almost entirely a Gerald Wiggins trio date with a couple of Mulligan things also taken from Pacific Jazz. The Wiggins is pleasant but hardly essential.

Has P-Vine been discussed on the Board before? And has anyone else picked up some of these P-Vine Crown reissues? They've reissued both Coleman Hawkins records as well, though, as another poster indicated, Fresh Sound has combined both of those lps on one cd. No idea what the sound is like on those.

gregmo

[Big Beat Steve]

@King ubu: See how this thread gets derailed due to this ongoing ambiguity in the title?

One might almost be inclined to think this to and fro with the thread title renaming is a case of "I as an eminent thread title changer cannot be made to act as a serf of simple forumists and change the thread title like he/they want(s) it but I am going to change it MY way!"

My my ...

Ah, if it only had been a Blue Note reissue. Then it would OF COURSE have been fully in order to narrow down the specifics of a thread title (and content) to whether SACDs are actually improved by XSACDs or XYZSACDs or if a 25-bit remaster is better than 24 or 23-bit remasters or whatever ....

But lowly Dootone/Crown/Boplicity? Ah, lump it all together ...

Looks like it will therefore be hard to keep focusing on Boplicity ...

Anyway ...

@Greg M.:

P-Vine was really FINE in the vinyl days when they ran reissues of R&B 78rpm-era releases that had not seen the light of reissue days anywhere before but now ... ? I've read rather lukewarm reviews of P-Vine CD reissues in print here and there in recent years but cannot vouch for sucjh judgment first-hand. They are hard to get hold of and those P-Vine CDs that I have seen in more recent times somehow did not seem that unique in what they covered, so ...

@crisp:

Tongue in cheek undertone of your post duly noted but in a pinch there would always be room for a spearate thread covering additional source labels, wouldn't it? (See my above swipe at how specific BN threads can get, for example ...)

Edited November 7, 2013 by Big Beat Steve

[king ubu]

@King ubu: See how this thread gets derailed due to this ongoing ambiguity in the title?

One might almost be inclined to think this to and fro with the thread title renaming is a case of "I as an eminent thread title changer cannot be made to act as a serf of simple forumists and change the thread title like he/they want(s) it but I am going to change it MY way!"

My my ...

Ah, if it only had been a Blue Note reissue. Then it would OF COURSE have been fully in order to narrow down the specifics of a thread title (and content) to whether SACDs are actually improved by XSACDs or XYZSACDs or if a 25-bit remaster is better than 24 or 23-bit remasters or whatever ....

But lowly Dootone/Crown/Boplicity? Ah, lump it all together ...

Looks like it will therefore be hard to keep focusing on Boplicity ...

Yeah, well, if you had me as a moderator, I would merge threads on a daily basis ... in fact we might end up with the entire board in one thread

Anyway, got to get the Dexter disc, for sure ... can anyone say something more on the Collette? I did see post #68, but with so many derailed posts, I guess asking for more than one sentence on one of only four albums (or rather: reissues thereof) that were initially the topic of this verbose discussion isn't asking too much ... well, I guess, I hope!

[erwbol]

Let's start by merging all bargain threads, and call it: