Jimmy Giuffre "Fusion" session

[romualdo]

I've noticed that the original Verve LP (great cover) contains a Giuffre title "Used To Be" that has not been released on CD

Instead, the ECM (twofer Fusion/Thesis) CD release contains an unreleased title "Afternoon" - I'm wondering if they are the same title though timings are different (nothing in CD liner notes)

Anyone out there with a copy of the vinyl or know why this has been omitted?

I'm surprised these two classic Verve's (Fusion & Thesis) havn't had more CD exposure (maybe Japan)

Big fan of JG here esp this period - also Vandermark's Free Fall groups paying homage to this period

[jazztrain]

I have a Japanese LP reissue of Fusion as well as the ECM cd set.

The listed timing for "Used To Be" is 3'44".

The timing of "Afternoon" listed on the CD is 5'10".

The timings for the other titles agree within a second or two except for "Trudgin."

The LP timing for Trudgin' is listed as 4'02" while the CD booklet shows 4'33".

I'll have to try to confirm that they are really different tonight or tomorrow if this is of interest.

Edited July 22, 2013 by jazztrain

[Chuck Nessa]

I faintly remember that the master tape was damaged so ECM skipped one tune.

[Big Beat Steve]

I faintly remember that the master tape was damaged so ECM skipped one tune.

Wouldn't a needle-drop still have been far better than skipping it? Now where's the outcry of the completists?

[mjazzg]

ECM also chose to reorder the tracks IIRC

It's possibly unique (ready to be corrected) in the ECM catalogue as a reissue of sessions recorded by another label. I believe Eicher was keen to make the music available as he felt it represented what he was hoping to achieve with his label. I, for one, am very grateful to him for doing so

[jazztrain]

I remembering wondering how the music ended up on ECM but was grateful to have these sessions together in a convenient format.

[sonnymax]

I have enjoyed the music from these two dates for many years, but I was unaware of the substitution and the change in the track order. Got to go back and hear what it sounds like in its original form.

[colinmce]

I was unaware too, thanks. (Ditto regarding the reordering). I've always considered reinforcing the ECM with the LPs, but now I'm certain I must!

[JSngry]

Did not Eicher also use some post-production to turn the original LP sound into something more "ECM-ish"?

[Chuck Nessa]

Probably. I have not heard the cd.

[romualdo]

thanks for the info

may have to look for a vinyl copy now

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Shit, I'll have to find a copy of that LP too. I was turned onto these sessions by sonnymax years ago and still enjoy spinning them.

[jlhoots]

I have the ECM "version".

Sounds fine to me.

[B. Clugston]

1961 also has two bonus tracks plus some studio chatter from the Thesis session.

[JSngry]

I have the ECM "version".

Sounds fine to me.

Sounds fine to me too. But I seem to recall some talk that it does not sound like the Verve LPs sound, because of some Eicher "touches".

I've got neither LP, nor the funds/interest to seriously pursue them, so whatever Eicher did is fine by me. But I guess I would like to contrast/compare just once.

[jazztrain]

Finally had a chance for a quick listen.

"Used to Be" and "Afternoon" are different compositions.

The two performances of Trudgin' are different takes.

[P.L.M]

I have "Fusion" in a Japanese LP print from 1975 on "Immortal Jazz On Verve", manufactured by Polydor K.K. (I've also "Bird and Dizz", Sonny Rollins "Brass/Trio", Sonny Stitt "With The New Yorker" and "Personnel Appearance"). After a fast comparison between The CD version from ECM and The japanese album, they sound to my ear about the same in spite of the difference of the support (Vinyle vs CD).

The ordering of the tunes are different in the LP (who, I've supposed, have follow the original ordering) :

Scootin' About

Jesus Maria

Emphasis

In The Morning Out There

Cry, Want

Trudgin'

Used To Be

Brief Hesitation

Venture

"Used To Be" is not on the CD and "Afternoon" is not on the LP.

Is this of any interest to someone?

Edited August 7, 2013 by P.L.M

[clifford_thornton]

It's possibly unique (ready to be corrected) in the ECM catalogue as a reissue of sessions recorded by another label. I believe Eicher was keen to make the music available as he felt it represented what he was hoping to achieve with his label. I, for one, am very grateful to him for doing so

The Just Music LP was released privately and rereleased by ECM as #1002.

[jeffcrom]

Since reading this thread and finding out about the track missing from the ECM issue, I've had a case of Record Collectors' Discontent. I was cured when I found an original mono copy of Fusion in an Atlanta record store a couple of days ago. Since this version of the Giuffre 3 is one of my favorite ensembles, I'm glad to have "Used to Be" - just listened and digitized.

[mjazzg]

It's possibly unique (ready to be corrected) in the ECM catalogue as a reissue of sessions recorded by another label. I believe Eicher was keen to make the music available as he felt it represented what he was hoping to achieve with his label. I, for one, am very grateful to him for doing so

The Just Music LP was released privately and rereleased by ECM as #1002.

I knew there'd be one other somewhere

[fkimbrough]

The "Thesis" session was chronicled by Martin Williams as "Giuffre Date", and appears in his book "Jazz Masters In Transition", published by Da Capo Press. This session came five months after "Fusion", and is the second CD of ECM's "1961" by the Giuffre trio w/ Paul Bley and Steve Swallow. The article is short, but gives a fairly detailed account of the session. All tunes except one(not sure which, but perhaps "Afternoon") were first takes.

[romualdo]

The "Thesis" session was chronicled by Martin Williams as "Giuffre Date", and appears in his book "Jazz Masters In Transition", published by Da Capo Press. This session came five months after "Fusion", and is the second CD of ECM's "1961" by the Giuffre trio w/ Paul Bley and Steve Swallow. The article is short, but gives a fairly detailed account of the session. All tunes except one(not sure which, but perhaps "Afternoon") were first takes.

Many thanks - was only looking through that very book yesterday for anything on Max Roach

(the Giuffre article was originally sourced from the Jan 62 FM/Stereo Guide)

[mjazzg]

Since reading this thread and finding out about the track missing from the ECM issue, I've had a case of Record Collectors' Discontent. I was cured when I found an original mono copy of Fusion in an Atlanta record store a couple of days ago. Since this version of the Giuffre 3 is one of my favorite ensembles, I'm glad to have "Used to Be" - just listened and digitized.

I wish I lived in a city where you could walk into a store and find a mono Fusion, very nice.

[jeffcrom]

Since reading this thread and finding out about the track missing from the ECM issue, I've had a case of Record Collectors' Discontent. I was cured when I found an original mono copy of Fusion in an Atlanta record store a couple of days ago. Since this version of the Giuffre 3 is one of my favorite ensembles, I'm glad to have "Used to Be" - just listened and digitized.

I wish I lived in a city where you could walk into a store and find a mono Fusion, very nice.

I have jokingly told the owner of this particular store that, whenever I got the sudden urge to have a particular obscure album, I can walk into his store and there's a 90% chance he'll have it. Even so, I was kind of shocked to find Fusion on the shelves.

[mjazzg]

Since reading this thread and finding out about the track missing from the ECM issue, I've had a case of Record Collectors' Discontent. I was cured when I found an original mono copy of Fusion in an Atlanta record store a couple of days ago. Since this version of the Giuffre 3 is one of my favorite ensembles, I'm glad to have "Used to Be" - just listened and digitized.

I wish I lived in a city where you could walk into a store and find a mono Fusion, very nice.

I have jokingly told the owner of this particular store that, whenever I got the sudden urge to have a particular obscure album, I can walk into his store and there's a 90% chance he'll have it. Even so, I was kind of shocked to find Fusion on the shelves.

can I send you a Wants list?

I have a trashed mono and a mint-ish stereo and the mono seems to have more depth and heft to the sound. Lovely LP