Alex Hoffman: "Why I think Wayne Shorter Sucks"

[CJ Shearn]

Apparently I missed this controversy until today. Was this video posted here? The criticism is valid, but the evidence he uses is very weak. Music doesn't have to be in a logical straight line.

Edited June 8, 2013 by CJ Shearn

[JSngry]

Whoa...that was bad on all counts by all parties.

[CJ Shearn]

I understand his mentor was Barry Harris who is conservative musically past bop but man............... The examples he cites of Wayne's harmony being crude are disproven by of course, courses on his music, dissertation. Even someone like me and others on this board who never studied theory, know by our ears Wayne is a great writer/soloist. He COMPLETELY misses the point of the Plugged Nickel set, Miles was breaking the form down and reconstructing it to see what could be done and that's why it's so great! The faith stuff, that's not the part of the board to get into, but the guy's whole view of jazz is so........ why does jazz have to be a clear system? I suppose Bruce Lee's jeet kune do is not valid for him because it disregards what's not practical in traditional martial arts. Not showing emotion in jazz? Get out of here! The video really hit me wrong on all levels, especially after I was lead to it from the great Lovano interview of Shorter. Wayne very well may struggle on "Birdlike", but that quirkiness is what makes it worthwhile.

[JSngry]

I thought the interviewer was weak too...neither one of them present a world to which I can relate, nor one to which I want to relate, nor for which I heard any compelling reason to even try to relate. One guys's all "I don't gotta like Wayne Shorter", the other guys all "Well, you gotta RESPECT him, he's a Great Man", then the guys "You can't make me, you're not the boss of me", and jesusfuckingchirst, just...thanks for maximizing the potential of the internet, right?

I heard Facebook Anger "arguing" with Accepted Truth. Digital emotions, digital actions, just...no. None for me, thanks.

Hey, here's my take on it Fuck BOTH of 'em!

[CJ Shearn]

I felt the interviewer was intimidated by Ron Carter when he interviewed him and it was awkward. His Mulgrew Miller interview was ok b/c Mulgrew taught him.

[JSngry]

Oh, he got intimidated by Ron Carter? Is he a bass player?

[JSngry]

I would be intimidated trying to interview Ron Carter myself, simply because I don't have anything to ask him that he's not already been asked, and I pretty much know all I want to know as a result.

If somebody else can get more out of him by asking questions that he's not already given the answer to, then, hey, great. I'll lok at that. But that person ain't gonna be me.

No, the one question I would ask him is this - why did you fuck up that Bach album SO bad. But...I don't really care enough to ask, so...moot point.

[CJ Shearn]

When I lived in Binghamton, that album was in the bins at a local store. A guy was looking at it, I told him it was bad, and he put it on to preview he liked it b/c it sounded like "horror movie music" Your diatribe on that album wherever it is, is classic! And yes, Jonah Johnathan is a bassist.

Edited June 8, 2013 by CJ Shearn

[JSngry]

Well, ok, I get it. I was young and intimidated by Giants once myself, probably not fair to crack on him for that.

But he was still weak with this Alex Hoffman cat, just as weak in his own was as Hoffman was in his.

One thing Wayne Shorter's music "never" was or is was/is weak. Not like that. Clarity of purpose, clarity of voice, refusal to be denied.

And otoh, if/when life ever gets to the point where intimidation as a means of screening is totally off the table, then...nah, that ain't ever gonna happen. Everybody wants to be strong, even weak wants to be strong. You get put to the test in life, but you gotta decide whose tests are worth taking and whose are just traps.

If I was a bass player, I'd consider Ron Carter's tests to be worth taking.

But that Bach thing, that was not a test, that was a trap.

[CJ Shearn]

In Hoffman's definition of music if it doesn't have clear voice leading or logical harmony or rhythm, clear rules it sucks. Wayne's use of non functional harmony is cool, and makes things more interesting than just a standard II-V-I or I-VI-II-V thing. Every argument was weak, and by the look on his face, he knew it. I got a similar feeling when Robert Glasper said (and he wasn't as literal as this guy) forget about Bird and Trane and focus on now, Glasper got very defensive. Also, so what if Bird or Prez sat still while they played in total concentration? Someone being fully invested in the music with their body isn't bad at all!!!!!

Edited June 8, 2013 by CJ Shearn

[Big Wheel]

"The function of Dsus is not to go to D major."

Sure it is. D sus is just a C major 7 with a D in the bass. As anyone who has ever played a I-VI-ii-V progression knows, you can virtually always substitute a iii for a I chord. The iii of C major 7 is E minor 7. E minor 7 is of course the ii chord of a ii-V-I that goes right to....D major! Did Alex Hoffman just admit that he doesn't know ii-V-Is as thoroughly as Wayne Shorter?

I'd point out the irony of Hoffman's worldview valorizing science while completely misunderstanding the point of science (it's a method of asking questions to learn about how the world works, not the One True Way that prescribes how it should work). But I have a feeling he just is somewhere on the Asperger's spectrum or maybe has mild to moderate OCD.

[erwbol]

...

I'd point out the irony of Hoffman's worldview valorizing science while completely misunderstanding the point of science (it's a method of asking questions to learn about how the world works, not the One True Way that prescribes how it should work). But I have a feeling he just is somewhere on the Asperger's spectrum or maybe has mild to moderate OCD.

So, no point in arguing with such retards? Now YOU are talking out of your ass.

[Big Wheel]

...

I'd point out the irony of Hoffman's worldview valorizing science while completely misunderstanding the point of science (it's a method of asking questions to learn about how the world works, not the One True Way that prescribes how it should work). But I have a feeling he just is somewhere on the Asperger's spectrum or maybe has mild to moderate OCD.

So, no point in arguing with such retards? Now YOU are talking out of your ass.

I watched the whole hourlong interview; did you? No disrespect intended to those with the above disorders, but if you listen to the guy it's clear he has an irrational fetish for ORDER. MUST HAVE ORDER. CAN'T HAVE TRUE BEAUTY WITHOUT EVERYTHING IN ITS PROPER ORDER.

What's the point of engaging in detailed takedowns of obviously irrational fetishes?

[Jim Alfredson]

I am not comfortable with this being here. It blew up all over FB months ago and frankly I don't feel like this schmuck should have any more exposure.

[John L]

Jim - I wouldn't be worried about him having any credibility on the Organissimo board. This thread will be soon buried deeply forever.

[bertrand]

Amazing that this just came up on this forum since it was all over FB a while back already.

[7/4]

A 70 min video, I don't have that kind of time these days! I saw a bit of his FB rant...seems like he's just looking for attention and doesn't know it yet.

[JSngry]

[CJ Shearn]

Sorry Jim, I really didn't know. I just wanted to get people's thoughts because I thought he is dead wrong on Wayne's music, and also thank you for clarifying that theory Big Wheel. I didn't study that b/c I'm not a musician but I thought "wait a minute D sus to D major seems totally logical!" Perhaps the NYU program Hoffman is a graduate of does have a very strict view on what's "correct" in jazz, I have no idea.

[Larry Kart]

Don't take it down, I would say. I want to watch it/listen to it (haven't had a chance yet), out of sheer curiosity. Its presence here won't hurt anyone/anything, I believe. What are we afraid of? Surely not idiocy.

[CJ Shearn]

Would be interesting to hear your thoughts Larry. One of the most ridiculous claims he makes is that Wayne's tone is brash, loud and shows a need to "assert masculinity", and his dislike of the Plugged Nickel dates among other non music related topics.

[erwbol]

...

I'd point out the irony of Hoffman's worldview valorizing science while completely misunderstanding the point of science (it's a method of asking questions to learn about how the world works, not the One True Way that prescribes how it should work). But I have a feeling he just is somewhere on the Asperger's spectrum or maybe has mild to moderate OCD.

So, no point in arguing with such retards? Now YOU are talking out of your ass.

I watched the whole hourlong interview; did you? No disrespect intended to those with the above disorders, but if you listen to the guy it's clear he has an irrational fetish for ORDER. MUST HAVE ORDER. CAN'T HAVE TRUE BEAUTY WITHOUT EVERYTHING IN ITS PROPER ORDER.

What's the point of engaging in detailed takedowns of obviously irrational fetishes?

I must admit I have not watched the video. I do have said Autism/Asperger Spectrum Disorder and I took offense.

I reacted in the moment and it would have been better to ignore you.

[JSngry]

FWIW, the whole thing about "order" and "beauty" and "vulgarity" and "exaggerating one's self" in place of "transcending one's self" specifically is terms of jazz is pretty common concept in the world of Lennie Tristano, then and now. I think they're valid considerations, actually, but only when applied to one's own direction. You start projecting stuff like that out to anybody beside yourself/people on the same trip and shit gets...awkward.

Also, I didn't see any "illness" in Hoffman nearly as much as I saw somebody who found out in a big hurry that no matter where you are on the internet, somebody is listening and taking notes, so be ready to edit accordingly before, during, and after.

I mean, really "Fuck Wayne Shorter" on Facebook? And nobody's going to notice? And/or spread? Seriously? Geez, kid, REALLY?

When the whole BAM party went down, Payton was READY for it. I think he knew what was going to happen and had Round Two ready before Round One even hit the street. This kid....doesn't seem to have thought things through to that degree...to put it mildly.

[CJ Shearn]

The whole BAM thing was a better thought out argument too. I love Nick's blog

[Larry Kart]

Just checked out the video of Hoffman's own stuff. Whatever he has to say about Wayne, he and his cohorts pretty much sound like zombies.