lee konitz: q and a with ethan.

[Mark Stryker]

Joe Wilder was on the scene by 1941 (Les Hite) and 1942 (Lionel Hampton). What I don't know is if he's still making gigs, but it would not surprise me since he was impeccably trained, studying at the Manhattan School with the elder Joe Alessi (Ralph and Joe's grandfather, not their father who was also a New York trumpet guru. Very confusing family. Donald Byrd studied with the same senior Alessi by the way.) Anyway, I talked to Wilder recently when trying to nail down an obscure point about Thad Jones' instruments. Wilder sounded great on the phone.

[Larry Kart]

Sachs can be heard to great advantage (as can a number of other fine players, including Joe Wilder, Eddie Bert, Oscar Pettiford, and George Wallington) on several fine albums from the late composer-arranger Tom Talbert. The first one, "Bix, Duke & Fats," is quite special.

http://www.amazon.com/Bix-Duke-Fats-Talbert-Orchestra/dp/B00005LCTV/ref=sr_1_5?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1368741635&sr=1-5&keywords=tom+talbert

http://www.amazon.com/This-Living-Tom-Talbert/dp/B0000060IL/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1368741601&sr=1-3&keywords=tom+talbert

There's also a fascinating Talbert biography:

http://jazzprofiles.blogspot.com/2012/06/tom-talbert-different-voice.html

[sgcim]

Sachs can be heard to great advantage (as can a number of other fine players, including Joe Wilder, Eddie Bert, Oscar Pettiford, and George Wallington) on several fine albums from the late composer-arranger Tom Talbert. The first one, "Bix, Duke & Fats," is quite special.

http://www.amazon.com/Bix-Duke-Fats-Talbert-Orchestra/dp/B00005LCTV/ref=sr_1_5?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1368741635&sr=1-5&keywords=tom+talbert

http://www.amazon.com/This-Living-Tom-Talbert/dp/B0000060IL/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1368741601&sr=1-3&keywords=tom+talbert

There's also a fascinating Talbert biography:

http://jazzprofiles.blogspot.com/2012/06/tom-talbert-different-voice.html

Yeah, I've got the Bix, Duke & Fats LP- great stuff.

he was also on the John Lewis LP "The Golden Striker".

He's always got some great stories about the heavyweights he played with.

On the Lewis sessions (and concerts?), he'd sit around and practice Bach on the flute, while all the black dudes would be getting high. So John Lewis comes up to him and says, "Wow, I've never seen anything like that- you're actually practicing classical music. Maybe the other guys should be doing something like that...".

There was a time in the 40s when he said he was being promoted as the "great white hope" against Bird.

So Bird sees him on the street in NYC one day, and comes up to him and says, "I know who you are... Don't go thinkin' you're so special!"

I think he played on a Sarah Vaughn record with Bird and Diz (not sure).

On the many gigs I played with him, every solo was a subtle work of art- you literally cannot hear anyone play like that anymore.

He gave me a CD copty of the LP he made with Jimmy Raney and Hall Overton, a tape of a trio gig he did with Joe Puma, and a tape of a concert he did with Janice Friedman. All great stuff.

You'd think NYC would celebrate a great national treasure like him while he's still alive, but no- all we get is Wynton and work songs...

[AllenLowe]

I called him up tonight (Aaron Sachs). Nice man. We talked a little about Bill Triglia; says he's still interested in playing.

by the way, vis a ve Wynton and the question of Sachs not being recognized - to me it's classic racialist behavior by the JALC crowd.

Edited May 17, 2013 by AllenLowe

[Chuck Nessa]

I called him up tonight (Aaron Sachs). Nice man. We talked a little about Bill Triglia; says he's still interested in playing.

by the way, vis a ve Wynton and the question of Sachs not being recognized - to me it's classic racialist behavior by the JALC crowd.

Not so sure I'd make that leap.

[AllenLowe]

well, they've done this kind of thing before - they have a double standard for "primary" sources. I remember back in the late '70s or so, when the program was just starting, when Art Hodes was still around, and people were trying to get them to recognize what a resource he was. Also Rob Gibson called me up at the time, dangling some empty promises; what he really wanted was some programming ideas. We had lunch, and one of the things I tried to get him interested in was that in-between generation of beboppers - Triglia, Knepper, Barry Harris, Carmen Leggio, a bunch of those guys who were around and playing well, and not getting much work. His eyes glazed over, primarily, from what I gathered, because most of the musicians I was suggesting were white.

[Chuck Nessa]

Have to admit I made the same assumption. Maybe you had a great idea and loaded the list with folks you knew.

[Larry Kart]

I called him up tonight (Aaron Sachs). Nice man. We talked a little about Bill Triglia; says he's still interested in playing.

by the way, vis a ve Wynton and the question of Sachs not being recognized - to me it's classic racialist behavior by the JALC crowd.

Not so sure I'd make that leap.

Nor would I, much though I find Sach's playing attractive. The reasons aging guys who can play aren't recognized are legion. I suppose we should next consider the racialist snubs visited upon Dick Meldonian.

[AllenLowe]

well, you gotta know the JALC vibe, especially in those days. If there had a been a legion of unrecognized beboppers who were not white, they would have been all over it, trust me. As for being my friends - well, I knew almost everybody in those days. This was a whole generation of players who were all near the same age, could still play, and were working $35 gigs. It's not the same as Melodonian, these were people who were really everywhere around the small clubs in NYC.

[Larry Kart]

well, you gotta know the JALC vibe, especially in those days. If there had a been a legion of unrecognized beboppers who were not white, they would have been all over it, trust me. As for being my friends - well, I knew almost everybody in those days. This was a whole generation of players who were all near the same age, could still play, and were working $35 gigs. It's not the same as Melodonian, these were people who were really everywhere around the small clubs in NYC.

No doubt the place was home to a fair degree of racialist thinking, but OTOH I don't recall the JALC gigs for C Sharpe, Tommy Turrentine, Dave Burns, Walter Bishop Jr., et al. Also, though I may be mistaken here, a good many of the relatively unrecognized non-white beboppers by the time JALC came into being were no longer among the living or not in great shape or not living in the NYC area. In any case, if there were a non-white counterpart to, say, Triglia or Schildkraut, he probably wouldn't have gotten a gig there either.

[JSngry]

Did Duke Jordan ever do a JALC thing?

[Justin V]

Regarding current musicians with long careers, what about Sir Charles Thompson? Here's a video from a 12/23/11 gig in Japan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4Jb2zMHJtc.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Justin V

[sgcim]

well, you gotta know the JALC vibe, especially in those days. If there had a been a legion of unrecognized beboppers who were not white, they would have been all over it, trust me. As for being my friends - well, I knew almost everybody in those days. This was a whole generation of players who were all near the same age, could still play, and were working $35 gigs. It's not the same as Melodonian, these were people who were really everywhere around the small clubs in NYC.

No doubt the place was home to a fair degree of racialist thinking, but OTOH I don't recall the JALC gigs for C Sharpe, Tommy Turrentine, Dave Burns, Walter Bishop Jr., et al. Also, though I may be mistaken here, a good many of the relatively unrecognized non-white beboppers by the time JALC came into being were no longer among the living or not in great shape or not living in the NYC area. In any case, if there were a non-white counterpart to, say, Triglia or Schildkraut, he probably wouldn't have gotten a gig there either.

I don't think it's the same case with those guys as it is with AS.

They were strictly boppers, whereas AS is on small group Swing LPs with the Red Norvo Sextet from the early 40s. One sax player I know used to hear him on the radio when AS was sixteen years old.

Phil Schaap had AS on KCR a few years back, discussing the genesis of the line on "Indiana", which evolved into "Donna Lee".

It's fascinating how it evolved from a line that Tiny Kahn wrote (that was recorded on a Terry Gibbs Sextet LP) when AS, TK and TG used to play together as kids in the Bronx, to the bop line of "Donna Lee".

I transcribed the line from the TG LP, and it was very similar to Donna Lee, showing the "aural" tradition of jazz in NYC back then.

My comment about JALC is a moot point.

When things like the Jazz Interactions Orch., The Jazz Repertory Band, and finally The Carnegie Hall Jazz Band died, it was all over for that type of thing in NY.

The Crouch/Marsalis/JALC syndicate calls the tunes in NYC, and to quote Burt Lancaster in The Sweet Smell of Success: "Here's your head- what's your hurry..."

[AllenLowe]

funny you mention Phil Schapp and Donna Lee; but that's another story. As for the others...well, Tommy Turrentine scared everybody in those days (he once spent a night at The Angry Squire walking up to people, staring them in the face, and growling; I would have have hit him with a rolled up newspaper if I had one; though I did hear him play an interesting set with Duke Jordan in which the whole program had him 1/4 tone sharp); Dave Burns was out on Long Island and not really in the center of things. Bish was around, true. C Sharpe had, I think, as they say, "personal" problems. And I wouldn't include Schildkraut, as he was too busy being abducted by aliens.

Edited May 17, 2013 by AllenLowe

[Larry Kart]

funny you mention Phil Schapp and Donna Lee; but that's another story. As for the others...well, Tommy Turrentine scared everybody in those days (he once spent a night at The Angry Squire walking up to people, staring them in the face, and growling; I would have have hit him with a rolled up newspaper if I had one; though I did hear him play an interesting set with Duke Jordan in which the whole program had him 1/4 tone sharp); Dave Burns was out on Long Island and not really in the center of things. Bish was around, true. C Sharpe had, I think, as they say, "personal" problems. And I wouldn't include Schildkraut, as he was too busy being abducted by aliens.

That was my point or part of it-- that a good many of the less-recognized but arguably worthy black beboppers were by that time no longer living or not in shape to play that well or growling in people's faces, etc.

[king ubu]

Rule #1 - If you want to play fast, practice slow.

Well, ok, Rule #1 = Practice, period. But then you get to Rule #1.

That reminds of me JG who mentioned in some interview how he practised in a cork-coated room ... until he got his HUUUUUUUUUGE sound right in that, uhm, narrowing surrounding. And then when he came out of there .... BOOOOOM in your face!

JG=Johnny Griffin?

Yes!