Exposing Kids to Jazz

[StarThrower]

I think your missing the point. My objective is not to convert anybody. It's simply about exposing a kid to something else. As everyone knows, especially in America, our own vital culture and artistic heritage is buried by the river of shit flowing from corporate media.

And I would never tell a kid he shouldn't listen to whatever he wants to. My folks weren't pushy, and they never did that to me. And besides, I'm offering my sister and her family a gift of music. Everyone gives gifts to their family members, and nobody interprets it as proselytizing. It's not like I'm gonna call them two weeks later and quiz them on the music. It's a gift I want to share, and I'll leave it at that.

[A Lark Ascending]

Nothing wrong with making someone aware of the greater breadth that is out there beyond the mainstream. Why not just have it playing when he visits and saying nothing unless he asks?

[StarThrower]

Because I rarely see the kid. I live in upstate NY, and he lives in Louisiana. And frankly, my sister and her husband don't have the musical knowledge to do this. I don't have any kids, so I decided it would be a nice thing to do for my nephew.

[A Lark Ascending]

It is a nice thing to do.

[Niko]

it most certainly is very nice - and if all he remembers about this episode is that you were trying to do something nice it might well be what really matters once he is 25 or so... that said, it looks like you are overwhelming him... my father (who knew next to nothing about jazz) decided it was part of my calling when I was 13. he got me a Benny Goodman compilation, a few months later a book about jazz (Behrendt) and a few months later a Duke Ellington compilation - I worked out the rest for myself and i don't think any more nudging would have helped at all.

he did sometimes listen with me though (all i remember is he disliked the Earl Coleman tracks in the Charlie Parker Dial Sessions, and he really liked Goodman's Sing Sing Sing and Roland Kirk... in some ways, he was the most typical beginning jazz listener you could imagine)

[JSngry]

. It's not like I'm gonna call them two weeks later and quiz them on the music.

Slacker.

[A Lark Ascending]

My dad had music on all the time - nothing fancy, light classics, opera favourites, Bing Crosby etc and he regularly told me how much finer it was than what I played.

Then one evening - I was about 15 - he proposed we all have an evening one day soon listening to my records. I really looked forward to that - a chance to explain why this music meant something to me and it wasn't just some daft teenage racket.

It never happened. I was very resentful.

So there's another approach. I'll sent you a CD of really great music I think you might like; you send me one back (or make a list of titles I'll seek out) of music that you like and think I might enjoy.

Puts it onto an equal footing.

[StarThrower]

I'm not really interested in the my music verses yours game. I don't put jazz above any other form of musical expression. It's just another form, and I want to share it. I've always listened to all kinds of music. I don't really care about genres or styles. It's the individual artistic expression coming from within that moves me. It just so happens that many of these artists happen to play jazz.

I'm not a jazz zealot out to show lost souls the light, so they can throw away their pop records. My approach is "here's some other stuff." You can add it to your collection and I hope you enjoy it. If not. C'est la vie.

[Dan Gould]

In virtually all cases there is a huge difference between a 15 year old and his view of 'his' music and a ten year old who happened to enjoy his grandpa's music in the car once.

[CJ Shearn]

FWIW starthrower, the version of "Heavy Weather" in the Columbia Albums 1976-1982 set is expanded to include a few tracks from "Live and Unreleased" and an unissued "Black Market".

[Chuck Nessa]

I would give the kid a copy of Ellington's "Piano in the Background". Fun, rhythm, enthusiastic playing and advanced harmonies. Lots of hooks there.

[Neal Pomea]

Shoot, try "early" jazz like from the 20s and 30s! This kid might be open minded enough for that, sounds like. Who knows what he'll warm up to.

[StarThrower]

I would give the kid a copy of Ellington's "Piano in the Background". Fun, rhythm, enthusiastic playing and advanced harmonies. Lots of hooks there.

I will give this a listen, Chuck. I'm always interested in finding some more good stuff from Duke. Thanks!

Right now I've got a buzz on and I'm listening to Wayne Shorter's The All Seeing Eye. Man! This is some great music!

And Nat Hentoff wrote some really interesting notes.

[Chuck Nessa]

On a related tangent: If you created an app to target middle school kids and draw them into jazz, what would you call it?

typo

Edited May 8, 2013 by Chuck Nessa

[Hot Ptah]

I think that the original poster is a very nice guy with his heart in the right place. It is possible that he has opened up a new world for this ten year old boy, and that as the ten year old grows up, he will always think of this fondly.

Reading this thread makes me wonder. Do the members here spend much time with kids?

A ten year old is a 4th or 5th grader. What if a 4th or 5th grader looked out of a car window, saw an ornamental arch on an old preserved building, and said, "I like that."

What if next, a kind, warm hearted uncle who is an architect mailed the kid several dvds about great architects and their designs, a coffee table book about great buildings from around the world, and some drafting tools. All because the kid said, "I like that" when he saw an arch out of a car window.

What if next the kindly uncle went onto his professional architects online forum and told the story, and old architects from around the world made lists about additional dvds and books about different great architects, past and present, to mail to the 10 year old kid--getting into debates about whether the 10 year old should receive dvds about the architects of ancient Egypt, the designs of the Roman Empire, or 21st century skyscraper designers?

I think that the original poster has planted the seeds, and the boy will either take what has been sent and start on a musical journey with a sense of wonder, or will feel overwhelmed and uncomfortable. I think that the boy's honest reaction will be the key.

On a related tangent: If you created an app to target middle school kids and draw them into jazz, what would you call it?

typo

The app that no middle school kid ever loads onto his smartphone.

[Hot Ptah]

In the interest of full disclosure, I will admit that my thoughts here are influenced by my own experience. A very intelligent niece of mine, an honors student, who lived far away, played trumpet in her middle school band. She was in the full band, the pep band, the marching band and the jazz stage band. Other relatives who heard her play said that she was remarkably good. She expressed great enthusiasm for playing the trumpet.

For Christmas I got her a book of the sheet music of great jazz trumpet solos. I was going to next get her an anthology collection of the great jazz trumpeters and send it to her.

Before I had decided on which jazz trumpeters CD anthology would be the best one, she contacted me. This is the first specific, personal direct communication I had ever had from her. She said that she hated the book of jazz trumpet solos and what in the world could I have been thinking of?

I told her to mail it back to me and I would get her something else for Christmas. She did. I asked her for a list of CDs she would like to get as gifts. She sent a list of the most popular pop CDs of the year--the most shallow dance pop there is, the AM radio hits that the members of this forum would consider to be jokes. I got her two of those CDs and she was very happy.

[A Lark Ascending]

I'm not really interested in the my music verses yours game.

It's not about 'versus'.

It's about 'I like this, you might like it too' balanced by 'So what do you like that I might like?' A pretty good basis for any relationship.

I'm reminded of the chap in 'Hi-Fidelity' who bombards his girlfriend with mix tapes of music he loves and desperately want to share. The response he gets is something along the lines of 'Very nice, dear'. A little later he hears her playing her Abba records.

Edited May 8, 2013 by A Lark Ascending

[JSngry]

You can probably shape a kid's values more than you can their tastes.

[sgcim]

Yea, I've had close to 20 years experience trying to expose inner-city kids to jazz, and if you try to shove your taste in music down their throats, they'll puke all over you.

While I've only worked with HS kids, I think it's safe to say that Bloomberg's twelve years of mayoral control of the NYC school system has ensured that these HS kids will be operating at a ten year-old mentality until they take their college remedial classes...

in any event, for the non-musician kids I taught, the only jazz that they would spontaneously go crazy over was "Sing,Sing,Sing" by the BG BB. As soon as they heard Krupa's drum beat, they'd go nuts!

[Steve Reynolds]

Yea, I've had close to 20 years experience trying to expose inner-city kids to jazz, and if you try to shove your taste in music down their throats, they'll puke all over you.

While I've only worked with HS kids, I think it's safe to say that Bloomberg's twelve years of mayoral control of the NYC school system has ensured that these HS kids will be operating at a ten year-old mentality until they take their college remedial classes...

in any event, for the non-musician kids I taught, the only jazz that they would spontaneously go crazy over was "Sing,Sing,Sing" by the BG BB. As soon as they heard Krupa's drum beat, they'd go nuts!

and probably the same for us!

especially for those who have a distaste for the quote, un-quote outer reaches of music.....

that music is much easier to be appreciated by those who don't know that it is supposed to be difficult to *get*

[StarThrower]

Only an idiot would try to shove their taste in music down someone else's throat. I suppose there are some obnoxious people who attempt this kind of thing, but I'm not one of them.

As I already stated, corporate media and advertisers are constantly bombarding children with all kinds of of shallow, useless garbage. My intention in giving a kid some jazz recordings is only to expose the child to something of excellence and lasting value. It doesn't matter if the kid doesn't take to the music wholeheartedly, or the specific artists aren't to his/her taste.

It's a matter of exposing a child to something of substance and intrinsic value. And the joy and satisfaction that results when people actually study, practice, learn their craft, and create beautiful music. And of course with a child, the more immediate impact of just hearing some exciting, well played music. And yes, the drums! I loved that stuff as a kid too. My mom's stepfather gave me the Rich vs Roach record when I was 10. And Sing Sing Sing is on there!

I don't see any difference between this and exposing a child to some classic literature. It's not about forcing anything down a kid's throat. It's just a matter of exposure and education, so kids can make up their own mind based on something else besides ignorance.

[ejp626]

I agree with Hot Ptah that it is pretty easy to overwhelm a kid, and I really do question those members who would push free jazz on a child. I think they would in nearly all cases hate it. Generally kids that age like melodic music with hooks and they simply won't appreciate anything with either polyrhythms or essentially a-rhythmic music. I had an early Columbia sampler with some Duke Ellington, Miles Davis, and Benny Goodman. To me, that was about the right speed and might not be as overwhelming as the Smithsonian Jazz Anthology (http://www.folkways.si.edu/jazz-the-smithsonian-anthology/ragtime/music/album/smithsonian), which while really nice and covering a decent spectrum is too big an investment for a kid who might just have a very passing interest in jazz.

[sgcim]

Actually, that would make a fascinating idea for an experiment. Expose a baby to only atonal music for their first five years of life.

Then, expose them to tonal music and see what their reaction is. Anyone got a kid we can use?

starthrower- I didn't mean to imply that you were "shoving your taste down the kid's throat".

I'm afraid I was guilty of doing that, and it didn't go too well...

Edited May 10, 2013 by sgcim

[Steve Reynolds]

Actually, that would make a fascinating idea for an experiment. Expose a baby to only atonal music for their first five years of life.

Then, expose them to tonal music and see what their reaction is. Anyone got a kid we can use?

starthrower- I didn't mean to imply that you were "shoving your taste down the kid's throat".

I'm afraid I was guilty of doing that, and it didn't go too well...

I think the exposure to crap like Barney's theme has an effect on younger listeners.

I do know that i grew up in a non-musical house where the only thing I heard up until I was 15 was probably the Boston Pops and whatever I heard on TV.

the first music I listened to on my own was top 40 in the early to mid 70's and then by the time I was 15 or 16, I bought my first LP which was Creedence Gold so I was listening to VERY straight music.

I remember being challenged listening to Traffic and yet intrigued and then captivated enough to buy the whole catalogue by the time I was 17 or 18.

Many years later I remember the same thing happening when I first heard the voice and the music of Don Van Vliet and then a few years later hearing parts of the Evan Parker 50th birthday broadcast in 1994 wondering why the hell they are wasting airspace playing atonal soprano solo duets with some guy named Stebe Lacy that went on forever with no structure, no rhythm, no melody, or no semblance of anything that resembled music.

So for some reason still as I heard a few more things that were out of the mainstream, I went to see the man live up close and personal.

and it started the same way UNTIL he got to doing that THING with the tenor saxophone and Dresser and Previte tore it up - and within a couple of years I was all in

.

So my point may be is that if I heard Evan Parker growing up would have I become a listener early in life rather than at 40 years old?

so none of really know, but we do need to try it out on a sample group fo kids.....

[colinmce]

Actually, that would make a fascinating idea for an experiment. Expose a baby to only atonal music for their first five years of life.

Then, expose them to tonal music and see what their reaction is. Anyone got a kid we can use?

I think my 2 y/o is the unwitting volunteer ...