The blue Note trumpeters

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

In this period, BN mostly recorded bebop/hardbop and soul jazz, with a smallish number of somewhat outside albums and an even smaller number of very outside albums. Hubbard certainly worked on a lot of bebop/hard bop albums and a fair few of the outside ones (there are quite a lot of these that I haven't heard). But he only ever appeared on one soul jazz album - Lou Donaldson's 'Lush life'/'Sweet slumber' and I don't think many Hubbard fans would say that the two solos he took in that album ought to carry much weight in a discussion like this.

Come on, now. Lou Donaldson certainly recorded plenty of "soul jazz" sessions, but "Lush Life/Sweet Slumber" is not one of them. Does not fit that mold at all. It's too sophisticated and highly arranged to be in that category, imo, not to mention the emphasis on ballads, and the fact that it was what Gitler referred to as a "little big band". It's one of my favorite Donaldson sessions ever, and I think it's misleading and even a little insulting to refer to it as "soul jazz". Don't pigeonhole Lou. He had plenty of range before (and after) he started emphasizing soul jazz.

I knew someone would get me on that, but I was trying to be generous to Hubbard's range on BN. OK, so he didn't make even one soul jazz session for BN - but he did for Atlantic and CTI, so that's kind of interesting in itself. One wonders why Alfred and Francis didn't get him on soul jazz...

MG

[Milestones]

Couldn't you call songs like "Driftin" and "Watermelon Man" (Hubbard pretty prominent) soul-jazz?

To be sure, I don't know the precise definition of soul- jazz, if there is one.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Milestones

[Joe]

There's a stridency to some of Hubbard's Blue Notes that I just can't hang with. But the best of them -- OPEN SESAME, READY FOR FREDDIE, HERE TO STAY -- are superb indeed.

Mitchell, for me, always serves the music or, if you will, the concept. He's pitched somewhere between KD's "splatter" and the brassier, lead dude stylings of a Morgan, Hubbard, etc. I guess what I'm saying is, when I think of Blue Note, I think of a particularly cultivated hard bop vibe that is as sophisticated as it is street, supportive of both dancing and brooding. (The sound of many of McLean's pre-LET FREEDOM RING dates, Henderson's OUR THING, the finest of Mobley's early 60s sides). Mitchell really captures that feel, or so I feel today. Maybe I'm thinking too cinematically... Was Morgan the greater musician? Without question. Yet, as inseparable as Morgan is from "Blue Note" as label, as idea, label-as-idea, "mystique," he's Lee Morgan whenever, wherever. (I'll counter my own argument, though: Moncur's EVOLUTION.) As fine as Blue's Riverside records are, there's something different about his BN work, a mutual support or complement between what he's playing and what Lion & Woolf are shaping.

Ultimately, the quintessential BN figure is Blakey, isn't it? More than Silver?

[Milestones]

If we go with quintessential BN "figure," for a quite a while I said Blakey; but I have long since switched to Silver. This is due in part to Silver's unbelievably long tenure with the label, but even more to his composing. As leader, composer, player...he is a genuine triple threat; and so many followed what he created.

[jazzbo]

I'm weird, I think of Blue Note in terms of pianists. . . and would say four represent different periods of the label's strengths: Art Hodes, Thelonious Monk, Horace Silver and Andrew Hill.

[Milestones]

I don't find that weird at all. In fact, I'd probably add Herbie Hancock to the list.

[Larry Kart]

alto - J-MAc, LD, Ornette,Spaulding (sic)

tenor - JoeHen, Wayne, Hank, Turrentine

LD and Turrentine, yes, but while I like Spaulding, don't think so -- just not enough of a player, while distinctive, and also no leader dates. The others (aside from JMAC, for whom I've already voted) no way because so much of their careers took place away from BN both before and later on, in Ornette's case especially.

[JSngry]

I was just thinking of who all made "significant statements" on Blue Noite in the 1960s, nothing more. Ornette certainly did (and with some music that was not-exactly Atlantic esque eitehr). so yeah, I leave Ornette in, because The Empty Foxhole is so far removed from The Shape Of Jazz To Come, that...yeah. And The Golden Circle dates, again, post-Atlantic, near-perfection, and on Blue Note. Love Call & NY Is Now, less perfect bot totally significant for any number of reasons. Ornette you don't hink of as a Blue Note saxophonist, but he sure made some Important Blue Note records. Works fo rme.

Spaulding I count because he was there on a lot of significant statements dates and didn't exactly fuck anything up be so being. But I can let him go if need be.

But take off Joe Henderson and/or Wayne?. Hell no!. Those guys work for the label is still thought of by many as their best, both compositionally and playing. And with Joe, good god, look at the outstanding sideman dates. Awesome!

[Joe]

Horace is going to be Horace, regardless, it seems to me. But compare Blakey's non-BN work to his BN work... besides, I feel like its Blakey's notions of ensemble, arranging -- not to mention the players he brought into the BN fold -- that helped define what the label was all about. (Post-bop, of course.) And not just its art, but its commerce as well. In the latter case, we ignore Jimmy Smith at our own peril.

[J.A.W.]

alto - J-MAc, LD, Ornette,Spaulding (sic)

tenor - JoeHen, Wayne, Hank, Turrentine

LD and Turrentine, yes, but while I like Spaulding, don't think so -- just not enough of a player, while distinctive, and also no leader dates. The others (aside from JMAC, for whom I've already voted) no way because so much of their careers took place away from BN both before and later on, in Ornette's case especially.Spaulding did lead several dates from 1976 onwards - but not on Blue Note, if that's what you mean Edited April 8, 2013 by J.A.W.

[Larry Kart]

alto - J-MAc, LD, Ornette,Spaulding (sic)

tenor - JoeHen, Wayne, Hank, Turrentine

LD and Turrentine, yes, but while I like Spaulding, don't think so -- just not enough of a player, while distinctive, and also no leader dates. The others (aside from JMAC, for whom I've already voted) no way because so much of their careers took place away from BN both before and later on, in Ornette's case especially. Spaulding did lead several dates from 1976 onwards - but not on Blue Note, if that's what you mean

Yes, that's what I meant.

[Larry Kart]

I was just thinking of who all made "significant statements" on Blue Noite in the 1960s, nothing more. Ornette certainly did (and with some music that was not-exactly Atlantic esque eitehr). so yeah, I leave Ornette in, because The Empty Foxhole is so far removed from The Shape Of Jazz To Come, that...yeah. And The Golden Circle dates, again, post-Atlantic, near-perfection, and on Blue Note. Love Call & NY Is Now, less perfect bot totally significant for any number of reasons. Ornette you don't hink of as a Blue Note saxophonist, but he sure made some Important Blue Note records. Works fo rme.

Spaulding I count because he was there on a lot of significant statements dates and didn't exactly fuck anything up be so being. But I can let him go if need be.

But take off Joe Henderson and/or Wayne?. Hell no!. Those guys work for the label is still thought of by many as their best, both compositionally and playing. And with Joe, good god, look at the outstanding sideman dates. Awesome!

The "Golden Circle" dates say "produced by Francis Wolff," but I think that (and Chuck or someone else can correct me on this) they were just picked up/released by Blue Note.

[paul secor]

I'm weird, I think of Blue Note in terms of pianists. . . and would say four represent different periods of the label's strengths: Art Hodes, Thelonious Monk, Horace Silver and Andrew Hill.

Sonny Clark?

[jazzbo]

Sure Sonny and Herbie (and Wynton Kelly, Kenny Drew, Horace Tapscott and more) are all in there. Just for me those four seem to represent four periods of Lion's interest and ideas to me.

[Niko]

Horace Tapscott = Herbie Nichols?

[paul secor]

Sure Sonny and Herbie (and Wynton Kelly, Kenny Drew, Horace Tapscott and more) are all in there. Just for me those four seem to represent four periods of Lion's interest and ideas to me.

I hear what you're saying, Lon. I just feel that Sonny Clark falls into a somewhat different category than Wynton Kelly or Kenny Drew. The latter two recorded strictly as sidemen (iirc), while Sonny recorded fairly extensively both as a leader and as a sideman. Just a difference of opinion - not a big deal to me.

[Steve Reynolds]

plus Sonny Clark was a briliant composer while the other two pianists were not.

[Joe]

IIRC, Monk, Nichols and Hill were the (modern) pianists Lion felt he had to document / have on Blue Note. That is, he had a special passion for their music.

[JSngry]

The "Golden Circle" dates say "produced by Francis Wolff," but I think that (and Chuck or someone else can correct me on this) they were just picked up/released by Blue Note.

Perhaps, but I still think of them as "Blue Note" anyway, since that's what they've always been and still remain. Plus, Ornette signed a deal with them anyway (wasn't the Town Hall thing supposed to be on BN?) that resulted in some more non-insignificant music. So if we're talking "60s Blue Note" as opposed to "Alfred Lion Blue Note", then I stand by my acall that Ornette was a significant Blue Note altoist of the 1960s, especially since he didn't really show any...enthusiasm for recording commercially once he left Atlantic. He actually signed a contract with Blue Note, a not-insignificant gesture in and of itself!

[jazzbo]

IIRC, Monk, Nichols and Hill were the (modern) pianists Lion felt he had to document / have on Blue Note. That is, he had a special passion for their music.

Yup.

Horace Tapscott = Herbie Nichols?

I meant to type Horace Parlan.

I had a response here I swear I made and it's not here. Anyway, the gist is I don't disagree about Sonny Clark, but I think Horace Silver was more important to the late 'fifties through early 'sixties Blue Note as far as Lion's interest and plan. I might be wrong. This is all subjective.

[clifford_thornton]

I was just thinking of who all made "significant statements" on Blue Noite in the 1960s, nothing more. Ornette certainly did (and with some music that was not-exactly Atlantic esque eitehr). so yeah, I leave Ornette in, because The Empty Foxhole is so far removed from The Shape Of Jazz To Come, that...yeah. And The Golden Circle dates, again, post-Atlantic, near-perfection, and on Blue Note. Love Call & NY Is Now, less perfect bot totally significant for any number of reasons. Ornette you don't hink of as a Blue Note saxophonist, but he sure made some Important Blue Note records. Works fo rme.

Spaulding I count because he was there on a lot of significant statements dates and didn't exactly fuck anything up be so being. But I can let him go if need be.

But take off Joe Henderson and/or Wayne?. Hell no!. Those guys work for the label is still thought of by many as their best, both compositionally and playing. And with Joe, good god, look at the outstanding sideman dates. Awesome!

The "Golden Circle" dates say "produced by Francis Wolff," but I think that (and Chuck or someone else can correct me on this) they were just picked up/released by Blue Note.

Right - because of the Town Hall debacle, they needed something to fill contract slots IIRC.

[JSngry]

Ornette had five LPs released on Blue Note in the 1960s, between 1965 & 1968.

How many did he release on Atlantic during the same decade? Not recorded, but released.

I count five as well, between 1960 & 1962.

For sheer Ultimate Importance, yeah, nothing beats the Atlantics.

But you still got five Ornette Coleman albums released on Blue Note in the 1960s, and I would not argue to the contrary if somebody tried to make the point that those five were a little more in line with the music he's made since than were the Atlantics.

[JSngry]

Now, in what sense is "representative" meant, well...who knows? Not my thread.

But representative of the 1960s? Ornette Coleman? Of course!

And representative of Ornette Coleman? I would not say that the Blue Note albums are not, just as I would not say that Verve Bird is not representative of where Bird was at that time. Overall, I think it was very representative of where Bird was at that time, which was becoming Post-Bird Bird, just as the BN albums find Ornette becoming Post-Ornette Ornette (and that's said with a less than 50% mischievousness, because once you smash the atom, then what? You either die right away or keep just going.until you do).

[Chuck Nessa]

I was just thinking of who all made "significant statements" on Blue Noite in the 1960s, nothing more. Ornette certainly did (and with some music that was not-exactly Atlantic esque eitehr). so yeah, I leave Ornette in, because The Empty Foxhole is so far removed from The Shape Of Jazz To Come, that...yeah. And The Golden Circle dates, again, post-Atlantic, near-perfection, and on Blue Note. Love Call & NY Is Now, less perfect bot totally significant for any number of reasons. Ornette you don't hink of as a Blue Note saxophonist, but he sure made some Important Blue Note records. Works fo rme.

Spaulding I count because he was there on a lot of significant statements dates and didn't exactly fuck anything up be so being. But I can let him go if need be.

But take off Joe Henderson and/or Wayne?. Hell no!. Those guys work for the label is still thought of by many as their best, both compositionally and playing. And with Joe, good god, look at the outstanding sideman dates. Awesome!

The "Golden Circle" dates say "produced by Francis Wolff," but I think that (and Chuck or someone else can correct me on this) they were just picked up/released by Blue Note.

Right - because of the Town Hall debacle, they needed something to fill contract slots IIRC.

Not right. Frank Wolff went to Stockholm for the recordings to replace the Town Hall stuff messed up by ESP.

IIRC, Monk, Nichols and Hill were the (modern) pianists Lion felt he had to document / have on Blue Note. That is, he had a special passion for their music.

Yup.

>Horace Tapscott = Herbie Nichols?

I meant to type Horace Parlan.

I had a response here I swear I made and it's not here. Anyway, the gist is I don't disagree about Sonny Clark, but I think Horace Silver was more important to the late 'fifties through early 'sixties Blue Note as far as Lion's interest and plan. I might be wrong. This is all subjective.

Ammons, ML Lewis, Monk, Nichols, Taylor and Hill were Albert's piano passions. Cecil was on the "One Night Preserved" concert at Lion's insistence.

[Lazaro Vega]

Trumpeters on Blue Note -- good thread, and while I understand the original point to limit it to 60's to focus the discussion, I mean, wear the shoes: you've presented Bunk Johnson, Wild Bill with Bechet, Frankie Newton, Buck Clayton, Howard McGhee, Fats Navarro, Clifford Brown, Miles Davis and the first Freddie in the 1940's and 1950's...and it's "what have you done for me lately"? Some of the greatest trumpeters in the history of the music recorded for the label in several decades across the evolution of the music, and the ideas they presented in these recordings fertilized everything. Those '60's cats weren't born of air.

Thanks, Mark, for reminding us again of "Clarion Calls" and "Bronze Injuns" (right?). The Adams/Byrd collaboration -- look out. How about a twin bill concert with that band and The Jazztet?

More evidence of Tommy Turrentine's swinging melodic ideas documented last year by Brian Lynch in recording a handful of TT's previously unknown compositions.