The blue Note trumpeters

[Milestones]

Not to be unkind, but if we consider the output of Lee Morgan as metaphorically a whole human body, then Alan Shorter would be a hand (maybe a pinky). I'm not trying to obtain a list of every trumpeter who blew a few notes in the decade, but rather to see how people rate the main trumpet figures on the label in those days. It's all rather subjective, but then what isn't?

[Larry Kart]

Art Farmer cropped up twice with Horace Silver, once with Sonny Clark, and twice with Hank Mobley -- always to fine effect.

[Mark Stryker]

The "conventional wisdom" is that Byrd's chops came down from their peak as he devoted more time to non-playing activities (education, law, etc.). In other words, it was more rust than an actual physical faltering setting in. Anything to counter that?

Yes, much to counter that conventional view. First, the decline started as early 1960-61, and I talked to several people who said Byrd told them it was a result of overwork, "blowing out his chops," especially when he was going to school all day and then playing all night in clubs without properly warming up. The irony is that this happened directly after his chops were at their iron-man peak, a result of studying with a couple of trumpet gurus at the Manhattan School -- William Vacchiano and the elder Joe Alessi (Ralph and Joe's grandfather, not their father, who was also a great classical trumpeter and teacher and was also named Joe -- too many Joes in that damn family!) It is interesting that Byrd barely records at all in 1962 which was a peak year for him going to school -- he completes the non-music courses for his bachelor's degree in '62 and his master's in music ed in '63, and in the summer of '63 he goes to Europe to study with Nadia Boulanger and starts writing for European studio ensembles, etc. But his chop problems predate this.

Later in the '60s is when he gets more involved in formal teaching, taking the job at Howard in 1968, and certainly by the early '70s he's got his fingers in so many things that he's not practicing enough to repair his technique or really keep up what he still had. There's another wildcard that I'm still trying to nail down: At some point he dealt with Bell's Palsy, which probably came on the late 70s or early 80s. He makes no records for five years starting in 1982, until the Landmark CDs 1987-91 and by then there's very little left. As I said, I'm still trying to get more details on this particular issue.

Not to be unkind, but if we consider the output of Lee Morgan as metaphorically a whole human body, then Alan Shorter would be a hand (maybe a pinky). I'm not trying to obtain a list of every trumpeter who blew a few notes in the decade, but rather to see how people rate the main trumpet figures on the label in those days. It's all rather subjective, but then what isn't?

To be clear, some of the responses listeing various trumpet players were in response to Chuck's secondary question about what post-bop figures of the era didn't appear on Blue Note. Perhaps we need to refocus on your original query...

Edited April 7, 2013 by Mark Stryker

[jazzbo]

Wild Bill Davison!

Just kidding, though he's one of my favorite trumpeters actually.

I don't value Hubbard as much as many do. The trumpeters who I have liked the most on the label I think are

Byrd

Dorham

Tolliver

Mitchell

Morgan

[Mark Stryker]

Going back to Milestone's first post, while it's true that Freddie's sideman appearances are extraordinary -- among them Empyrean Isles, Maiden Voyage, Contours, Components, Speak No Evil -- I would not go so far as to say these are all more enduring than his own records. You mentioned Breaking Point, but Ready for Freddie is one of the great trumpet records and Hub-Tones is pretty special too. Having said all that, if I'm taking one record to represent Freddie on my desert island it would be Herbie's Empyrean Isles.

[Mark Stryker]

Kenny Dorham's Blue Notes as a leader in the '60s are all special and all very different in character from each other -- Whistle Stop, Una Mas, Trompeta Toccata. Sometimes I think people overlook Whistle Stop because it's still more hard bop tan post-bop but KD plays incredibly well on it, not to mention Mobley, Kenny Drew, P.C. and Philly Joe. Una Mas, of course. Herbie-JoeHen-Tony Williams in fantastic form, and KD hanging right with them. TT has yet another feel with its rhythm section of Tommy Flanagan, Richard Davis, Albert Heath, plus Joe and KD in what I think is the lasst of their recorded collaborations, or am I forgetting something?

[CJ Shearn]

Isn't it consensus Dizzy played under a pseudonym on "Rollin with Leo"?

[mjzee]

I think of Little Johnny C as a Duke Pearson record.

Tommy Turrentine was really good on Sonny Clark's Leapin' and Lopin'.

TT is fine on all of the BN dates he's on. Thanks for thinking of him.

Well, he sometimes clams and sometimes overblows, but I really like his melodic sense.

[colinmce]

Going back to Milestone's first post, while it's true that Freddie's sideman appearances are extraordinary -- among them Empyrean Isles, Maiden Voyage, Contours, Components, Speak No Evil -- I would not go so far as to say these are all more enduring than his own records. You mentioned Breaking Point, but Ready for Freddie is one of the great trumpet records and Hub-Tones is pretty special too. Having said all that, if I'm taking one record to represent Freddie on my desert island it would be Herbie's Empyrean Isles.

I agree with everything here, but would add Out To Lunch and Open Sesame as truly outstanding achievements. I like Blue Spirits, too FWIW.

[StarThrower]

Carmell Jones played on one of the most famous 60s Blue Notes. Song For My Father.

[imeanyou]

Dizzy Reece made 4 really solid albums for Blue Note (five if you count 'Coming On' which was a Connoisseur title released a few yeears back). I think Morgan started off great, became formulaic and ended on a high. I always thought Richard Williams deserved a session on the basis of his support for Mingus and other session work. Thad Jones BN stuff I love.

Edit: Just checked, Reece made just four records for BN, 'Asia Minor' was on Prestige.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Imeanyou

[brownie]

afaic Kenny Dorham was the quintessential BN trumpet player of the 60s, as much as Miles and Clifford Brown were in the 50s.

Concise, always up to the point, he is the player from that decade I enjoy more than ever!

[colinmce]

Lets not forget KD holding true on Point of Departure. He let Dolphy, Hill, Davis, and Williams do their thing, and did his thing within it (though I know there was a bit of tension at the session).

Also Complete Communion!!

[Gheorghe]

Strange enough I don´t listen often to Lee Morgan´s "Sidewinder", I prefer "In Search to a New Land".

Hub Tones is great, and I like the 2 "Night of the Cookers" with Hubbard and Morgan for the exiting music and the long live tracks.

KD´s "Una Mas" is great, I enjoy that record.

Don Cherry´s "Complete Communion", "Suite for Improvisers" and "Where is Brooklyn?".

Woody Shaw´s contribution on Larry Young´s "Unity".

[sidewinder]

Another vote for Woody Shaw here. Add to 'Unity' the classic 'The Jody Grind' with Horace and sessions like 'Tex Book Tenor' with Booker Ervin. Shaw's presence on a BN date was invariably a sign of quality.

Kenny Dorham - for sure with his own classics and the sessions with Joe Henderson and Andrew Hill. Get's my vote for the most 'thoughtful' of these BN trumpet stylists.

Edited April 7, 2013 by sidewinder

[jazzbo]

Isn't it consensus Dizzy played under a pseudonym on "Rollin with Leo"?

Actually though I sometimes think it is, the consensus here is that it is not (though this is in discussion of "John Birks" on "Let Me Tell You About It").

Edited April 7, 2013 by jazzbo

[bluesForBartok]

Edited April 7, 2013 by bluesForBartok

[jazzbo]

Another vote for Woody Shaw here. Add to 'Unity' the classic 'The Jody Grind' with Horace and sessions like 'Tex Book Tenor' with Booker Ervin. Shaw's presence on a BN date was invariably a sign of quality.

Kenny Dorham - for sure with his own classics and the sessions with Joe Henderson and Andrew Hill. Get's my vote for the most 'thoughtful' of these BN trumpet stylists.

Woody Shaw is great on Natural Essence.

[Niko]

Isn't it consensus Dizzy played under a pseudonym on "Rollin with Leo"?

Actually though I sometimes think it is, the consensus here is that it is not (though this is in discussion of "John Birks" on "Let Me Tell You About It").

haven't looked into the booklets recently so it might well be in there, too, but going through the Left Bank Performance Listings

http://home.earthlink.net/~eskelin/leftbank.html

I got the impression that most of the lesser known names on the Leo Parker BNs are local players from Baltimore, Bill Swindell, Purnell Rice, John Burkes, Yusef Salim all pop up there...

[CJ Shearn]

Isn't it consensus Dizzy played under a pseudonym on "Rollin with Leo"?

Actually though I sometimes think it is, the consensus here is that it is not (though this is in discussion of "John Birks" on "Let Me Tell You About It").

Isn't it consensus Dizzy played under a pseudonym on "Rollin with Leo"?

Actually though I sometimes think it is, the consensus here is that it is not (though this is in discussion of "John Birks" on "Let Me Tell You About It").

Thanks Lon, though the name is too uncanny. I haven't heard either session, but I would think the tone, phrasing and licks would give away it's Diz, unless he purposely played differently as to not give it away.

[Mark Stryker]

With respect to Brownie and leaving aside matters of personal taste, I'd say that objectively speaking Freddie Hubbard would be the defining Blue Note trumpeter of the '60s, for the number, quality and stylistic variety of his appearances and his ultimately sweeping influence.

[Guy Berger]

Speaking of Miles and Byrd similarities...I have only heard snippets of "Electric Byrd," but these tunes are eerie in their similarity to the tracks on "Bitches Brew."

Bitches Brew, without the brains and the soul. I was trying to think of a nicer way of saying that - Electric Byrd is a fun, likable album - but I don't think the two belong in the same ballpark. They're not even the same sport.

[jazzbo]

Isn't it consensus Dizzy played under a pseudonym on "Rollin with Leo"?

Actually though I sometimes think it is, the consensus here is that it is not (though this is in discussion of "John Birks" on "Let Me Tell You About It").

haven't looked into the booklets recently so it might well be in there, too, but going through the Left Bank Performance Listings

http://home.earthlink.net/~eskelin/leftbank.html

I got the impression that most of the lesser known names on the Leo Parker BNs are local players from Baltimore, Bill Swindell, Purnell Rice, John Burkes, Yusef Salim all pop up there...

Hm. Not being able to hear the tape, I'm not sure "John Birks" (on the Blue Note personnel lilsting) and Johnny Burkes are the same person.

Isn't it consensus Dizzy played under a pseudonym on "Rollin with Leo"?

Actually though I sometimes think it is, the consensus here is that it is not (though this is in discussion of "John Birks" on "Let Me Tell You About It").

>>

Isn't it consensus Dizzy played under a pseudonym on "Rollin with Leo"?

Actually though I sometimes think it is, the consensus here is that it is not (though this is in discussion of "John Birks" on "Let Me Tell You About It").

Thanks Lon, though the name is too uncanny. I haven't heard either session, but I would think the tone, phrasing and licks would give away it's Diz, unless he purposely played differently as to not give it away.

When I listen to the session I allow myself to entertain the possibility that it is Diz purposedly playing differently, I do hear some similarities. I can't know either way. My copy of the cd is packed and shipped to Ohio so can't revisit right now.

Edited April 7, 2013 by jazzbo

[Larry Kart]

Another vote for Woody Shaw here. Add to 'Unity' the classic 'The Jody Grind' with Horace and sessions like 'Tex Book Tenor' with Booker Ervin. Shaw's presence on a BN date was invariably a sign of quality.

Kenny Dorham - for sure with his own classics and the sessions with Joe Henderson and Andrew Hill. Get's my vote for the most 'thoughtful' of these BN trumpet stylists.

Woody Shaw is great on Natural Essence.

There's a part he plays in the ensemble on (I think) "Yearning for Love" that just breaks my heart -- a twisting-turning figure that epitomizes the title phrase.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

If you're talking about a trunpet player who best represents Blue Note's work in the sixties, I don't think there was one.

In this period, BN mostly recorded bebop/hardbop and soul jazz, with a smallish number of somewhat outside albums and an even smaller number of very outside albums. Hubbard certainly worked on a lot of bebop/hard bop albums and a fair few of the outside ones (there are quite a lot of these that I haven't heard). But he only ever appeared on one soul jazz album - Lou Donaldson's 'Lush life'/'Sweet slumber' and I don't think many Hubbard fans would say that the two solos he took in that album ought to carry much weight in a discussion like this.

Lee certainly appeared in a handful of soul jazz albums in the sixties - the two with Lonnie Smith and 'Love bug' were outstanding examples of the genre. (And, of course, millions of hard bop albums ) But I don't think he made or appeared in any more than one outside albums in the sixties ('Evolution').

The trumpet player who seemed to divide his time fairly evenly between bebop/hard bop and soul jazz was Blue Mitchell, working with all kinds of musicians in those genres, but never once stepping outside to see if it was raining. But his work truly represents both those genres beautifully.

So no one covered all points Blue Note.

MG