Roland Kirk on Electronics in jazz, early 70s at Princeton University

[sgcim]

"Electronics have programmed the whole society.

Electronic music has brainwashed us, and if we don't come to grips with ourselves, we're gonna walk around plugged in!

The great musicians who have played the electric guitar- Django Reinhardt, Wes Montgomery, Oscar Moore, Charlie Christian and others- brought us beautiful music.

These masters controlled the electronics, made the electronics work for them.

We must not be psyched out and think the new sound is really something new.

Most musicians haven't done enough research to know that the "new age of electronics" is really something that's been going on for years.

All you have to do is trace back to European people like Edgard Varese, Karlheinz Stockhausen and Luciano Berio.

These people were writing beautiful electronic sounding music back in the 30s.

Everyone is getting on the electronic bandwagon, and consequently, pretty soon everything is going to sound alike.

When a man runs a vacuum cleaner, he can't produce his own touch on that vacuum cleaner because it's an electric thing.

It has its own built in sound.

What this electronic phase is doing is completely wiping out the identity of anyone playing creative black music (jazz).

This is a genocide of the music!"

From "Bright Moments"- a bio of Rahsaan Roland Kirk- by Jon Kruth.

Edited March 27, 2013 by sgcim

[fasstrack]

Prescient words..

[JSngry]

So...although there are past masters who "controlled the electronics", everybody else should just stop lest they get brainwashed? And them Europeans wrote beautiful "electronic sounding" music, but that's enough of THAT?

Frankly, acoustic lemmings matter to me no more or no less than do "electronic" ones. "Craft" is not something you do as an end to itself, unless that's really all the better use of your time that you got, in which case, hey, have a nice day, would you like fries with that (no, not ever). and life is a song, oh yeah.

Maybe the herd needs to be thinned and "electronics" is just the right tool to do it? Why, I think that just might be it! And I do want to be around to hear the survivors, as well as those who almost make it. Those who never stood a chance, oh well, get the fries, then. Super-size 'em.

Although, in the context of his time, Kirk made the good sense as far as he went. Find his Jazz & Pop interview where he talks about how Wes Montgomery busted his ass to play those octaves and now everybody push a button and they sound like Wes Montgomery. Classic.

Again, as far as it goes, good and right. But the real question is now that they got the button, what they gonna do with it?

Thin the herd! Hell yeah!

[sgcim]

This was obviously written by a tenor sax player trying to avenge the wounded egos of his many sax playing brothers whom RRK savaged.; - )

In one chapter RRK rips through Sonny Red (RRK sat in with him, and drove him out of his own gig leaving RRK to finish the gig!)John Stubblefield, Dexter Gordon (in Copenhagen, RRK sat in with him and wound up replacing his whole band with the Vibration Society, while Dexter went off to get high),Zoot Sims, Phineas Newborn, Freddie Hubbard (at the Paramount theater, RRK played back FH's entire solos, while playing something else at the same time with his manzello or stritch!), George Adams (at Carnegie Hall, he did the same thing that he did with FH, except Andy Statman said RRH was mocking GA), the band Stuff, Jon Hendricks, George Benson, Stan Getz (at Avery Fisher Hall, he was so annoyed that they put the two blind black men-him and Al Hibbler- in a tiny dressing room, a long distance from the elevator, while Getz got a huge room right next to the elevator, that he copied everything Getz was warming up with, and kept circular breathing when Getz stooped to take a breath), and finally, all the people who sat in with him at the Village Vanguard. He'd blow his siren on them if they went on too long, and when one woman tenor player started squeaking and honking, he reached out and ripped out her neck and mouthpiece- while she was still playing!

I think I know why no library in NY has a copy of this book- you and all your friends have probably had it banned from said libraries! ; - )

Edited March 27, 2013 by sgcim

[JSngry]

Oh, I love Rahsaan, for real. But the whole "electronics gonna kill us all" shit is at this point in time dumb, outdated, and just wrong. Ain't nothing gonna kill us all but us all, and if "electronics" is the tool, oh well. Hastening (or perhaps just presenting) the inevitable, that's all it is. And in the meantime, people who do learn to deal with it and not be dealt to by it are at this point in time not dumb, outdated, or wrong.

But at this point in time, Rahsaan (and all the people he carved, benevolently or otherwise ) are dead or closer to it than not. So if the game is to re-argue (do we get to win this time?) what is at this point a debate that has already been settled unless and until The Lights Go Out Once And For All (at which point there will be bigger fish to fry than who can push a button and sound just like Wes Montgomery), then I guess that's one of the many things that the Electronics Of The Internet will let you do, but, ok, good luck, and really?

That's all I'm saying.

That, and did Rahsaan ever carve Eddie Harris, or did they have a "gentleman's agreement"?

[sgcim]

I haven't finished the book yet, but:

"Undoubtebly, Kirk felt betrayed and disgusted when his labelmate at Atlantic (whom he had jammed with many times during his early days in Chicago), Eddie Harris, plugged in his saxophone.

'Man, i don't like all the electricity the cats are introducing these days- electric pianos, amps, fender bass, synthesizers. i like jazz clean and straight-ahead. I don't like to see it made too easy.

I like jazz that sweats. As far as pluggin' in my saxophone to an amplifier, that's not my cup of tea.

Most of my music is natural and acoustic. Hell, if you pull the cord out of the socket, these bands are out of business.'"

Then, RRK is quoted from the Keystone Korner telling Miles Davis;

"Miles, like y'know, why do you use all those electronics? i don't dig that stuff too much. Y'know, I like that mute. You quit usin' that mute. YOU MADE A MISTAKE, MILES!!!!"

then, whispering in an imitation of Miles' shredded larynx, he said, "Roland, everybody got to change. What do you want me to do about it? So what!"

Don't ask me to explain those last two words.; - )

[JSngry]

Miles' was right!

And probably not everybody got such respect shown to them be Mr. Davis as did Mr. Kirk!

But really - once you have a century or so to process the reality, does it not seem silly that you plug in to record music and that's ok, you plug in to hear music and that's ok, but you plug in to make music and that's not ok?

I like jazz that sweats too, btw, including Kirk's records with Trudy Pitts, Jack McDuff, and Eddie Baccus, all of whom would have been out of business if the cord was pulled out of the socket, so, oh well, sometimes it takes a while for the reality to get fully processed, eh?

Fact, though - Rahsaan didn't need no electronics, because his brain was wired to do it like that naturally *and god bless him for that just as we were blessed to have him here for the short time that we did). But not everybody's is, and life-options for anybody should not be limited on the basis of plugular preference, one way or the other. Some people's brains are wired that way too.

[robertoart]

This was obviously written by a tenor sax player trying to avenge the wounded egos of his many sax playing brothers whom RRK savaged.; - )

In one chapter RRK rips through Sonny Red (RRK sat in with him, and drove him out of his own gig leaving RRK to finish the gig!)John Stubblefield, Dexter Gordon (in Copenhagen, RRK sat in with him and wound up replacing his whole band with the Vibration Society, while Dexter went off to get high),Zoot Sims, Phineas Newborn, Freddie Hubbard (at the Paramount theater, RRK played back FH's entire solos, while playing something else at the same time with his manzello or stritch!), George Adams (at Carnegie Hall, he did the same thing that he did with FH, except Andy Statman said RRH was mocking GA), the band Stuff, Jon Hendricks, George Benson, Stan Getz (at Avery Fisher Hall, he was so annoyed that they put the two blind black men-him and Al Hibbler- in a tiny dressing room, a long distance from the elevator, while Getz got a huge room right next to the elevator, that he copied everything Getz was warming up with, and kept circular breathing when Getz stooped to take a breath), and finally, all the people who sat in with him at the Village Vanguard. He'd blow his siren on them if they went on too long, and when one woman tenor player started squeaking and honking, he reached out and ripped out her neck and mouthpiece- while she was still playing!

I think I know why no library in NY has a copy of this book- you and all your friends have probably had it banned from said libraries! ; - )

Wow. This is like reading a boxing report. RRK took him in the fourth, RRK KO'D him in the seventh, RRK won by technical knockout in the tenth, RRK's 'opponent(s) threw in the towel in the twelfth, RRK in a special promotional match with a woman, ripped her bleedin head off...

what a load of shit.

Edited March 28, 2013 by freelancer

[Matthew]

I haven't finished the book yet, but:

Then, RRK is quoted from the Keystone Korner telling Miles Davis;

"Miles, like y'know, why do you use all those electronics? i don't dig that stuff too much. Y'know, I like that mute. You quit usin' that mute. YOU MADE A MISTAKE, MILES!!!!"

then, whispering in an imitation of Miles' shredded larynx, he said, "Roland, everybody got to change. What do you want me to do about it? So what!"

Don't ask me to explain those last two words.; - )

I love RRK, but he was laying some pure, grade A, bull**** on Miles. "Go back to the mute." Yeah, that would have solved everything....

Edited March 28, 2013 by Matthew

[JSngry]

Solved?

I'd say that Miles figured it out, nothing left for him to solve.

Everybody else, though, they at least had to think it over, same as with Bird & Trane.

This was obviously written by a tenor sax player trying to avenge the wounded egos of his many sax playing brothers whom RRK savaged.; - )
In one chapter RRK rips through Sonny Red (RRK sat in with him, and drove him out of his own gig leaving RRK to finish the gig!)John Stubblefield, Dexter Gordon (in Copenhagen, RRK sat in with him and wound up replacing his whole band with the Vibration Society, while Dexter went off to get high),Zoot Sims, Phineas Newborn, Freddie Hubbard (at the Paramount theater, RRK played back FH's entire solos, while playing something else at the same time with his manzello or stritch!), George Adams (at Carnegie Hall, he did the same thing that he did with FH, except Andy Statman said RRH was mocking GA), the band Stuff, Jon Hendricks, George Benson, Stan Getz (at Avery Fisher Hall, he was so annoyed that they put the two blind black men-him and Al Hibbler- in a tiny dressing room, a long distance from the elevator, while Getz got a huge room right next to the elevator, that he copied everything Getz was warming up with, and kept circular breathing when Getz stooped to take a breath), and finally, all the people who sat in with him at the Village Vanguard. He'd blow his siren on them if they went on too long, and when one woman tenor player started squeaking and honking, he reached out and ripped out her neck and mouthpiece- while she was still playing!
I think I know why no library in NY has a copy of this book- you and all your friends have probably had it banned from said libraries! ; - )

Wow. This is like reading a boxing report. RRK took him in the fourth, RRK KO'D him in the seventh, RRK won by technical knockout in the tenth, RRK's 'opponent(s) threw in the towel in the twelfth, RRK in a special promotional match with a woman, ripped her bleedin head off...

what a load of shit.

Where's Celebrity Death Match when you really need it?

[sgcim]

Speaking of celebrity death matches, there's a story in the book told to the author by a musician from the Mingus big band of 2000 (when the book was written) who wished to remain anonymous, about Mingus cursing RRK out at a rehearsal because he didn't like the way RRK played one of his charts. Mingus then walked over to him and shoved him.

RRK said, ' What's your problem? Pushing around a blind man!"

Mingus then ordered the band members to draw the shades, cut the lights and blindfold him.

Mingus then nailed RRK in the jaw, and kicked RRK's butt, blindfolded.

As far as Miles' electric shit, according to one of his bios, most of that shit was put together, Frankenstein style, by Teo Macero in the editing room.

[Niko]

would like to say Teo Macero was older than Frankenstein, but it wouldn't be true

Edited March 28, 2013 by Niko

[JSngry]

And it's also not true that Teo put together all those live bootleg tapes that show that band in totally kickingass mode.

But I like that Mingus called Kirk's bluff on the blind card. That's why Kirk was the sideman in Mingus' band, but Mingus never a sideman in Kirk's.

I mean, on a "common decency" level, that's some fucked up shit, but on an "ok motherfucker, what's your excuse NOW?" level, that is pretty hardcore real.

[.:.impossible]

No way dude. A blind man had never been in a fight. He would not know how to handle himself. Can't say I like that.

[JSngry]

Oh, it violates every rule of decency. But a blind man had never been in a fight? Sure about that?

FWIW, a source I trust told me that they walked into a men's room, and there was Kirk sitting on a toilet, taking a shit, door wide open, daily newspaper wide open, talking to somebody about something in the paper. I have3 zero reason to doubt the source, even though the story itself begs to be disbelieved. But...

So yeah, any normal guy going at it like that with a normal blind guy, sure, that's fucked. But Mingus was not a normal guy, and Kirk was not a normal blind guy. It's still probably fucked, but since I really don't understand the world(s) that either guy lived in, hey, I like it at the level I like it at and make no claim beyond that.

But have you heard the stories about Ray Charles driving? They are legion enough that I believe them. So if Ray Charles is getting a ticket for going 70 in a 30, does he get a pass because he couldn't see the speed limit sign? Or what?

I mean, these are questions that we'd like to think that shouldn't even have to be asked, but there's enough of those type questions that after a while, hey, maybe yes they should be. Don't ask me what the right answers wre though, because they will be based on the premise that they shouldn't be, and oops, here we nevertheless are.

And consider this, as long as we're asking questions, who all was it who actually blindfolded Mingus, drew the shades, and turned out the lights?

[.:.impossible]

Agreed on the last paragraph. We know who had the advantage in that situation. Can't say I like it. Wouldn't have mattered then, and it sure as hell doesn't matter now! Lets just hope RRK played the fucking chart right thereafter! Ding!

[JSngry]

Hell, in Mingus' mind, he's probably all I punch guys, that's Part Of What I Do, so for me to NOT punch you out because you're blind, hey, that's me thinking of you as just Part Of A Man, an a Big Part of who I am is based on anger and not being viewed as a Whole Man, so how can I treat you like less than a Whole Man and still hold my dignity and you yours? You mightbe Blind but you're still a Whole MAn, right? And if not, WTF you doing in MY band? So, yeah, crazy, but in its own way, right as far as it goes, even it that Far is Very Little Far.

But you know it and I know it - these men were not like you and me. Sometimes that causes me to be humbled, sometimes humiliated, sometimes befuddled, sometimes distraught, sometime elated (for them), but very seldom can I say, hey, you guys GOT this, leave me out of it. Just leave me out of it. This would one of those times, though.

But still, the story has been related. The information must be processed. A new responsibility is incurred, to figure out WTF?

How 'bout that, eh?

[sgcim]

As to whether RRK had ever been in a fight, Andrew Hill was working with him in Rochester at the time of the church bombings in Alabama, and RRK said some things in a club that caused the police to meet them at their hotel. Andrew recalled:

"The next thing I knew the police were there with attack dogs, trying to take us off to jail. RRK fought with them. He could handle himself anywhere. He gave them a few "bright moments" to remember... just about broke one cop's neck!

They took us all off to jail, even those of us who weren't participating. He kept sayin', ' They won't put a blind person in jail!"

The next chapter goes on to tell the story of how he was arrested at Cleveland'sHopkins International Airport for plotting to hijack an airplane! They caught him going on to an airplane with a tear gas pistol and a knife, and held him in jail for two days.

It wound up they dismissed all the charges, and gave him some hush money.

[JSngry]

So, Kirk could have gone after Mingus but didn't. That's respect.

[robertoart]

[Noj]

RRK's The Three Sided Dream In Audio Color seems...to have a number of ideas which fall right in line with those of electronic music, and some strange overdubbed voices to boot. Just sayin'.

I can understand taking music seriously, but Mingus was really off his rocker.

[Dan Gould]

That Mingus story sure put me in mind of that See No Evil movie (underappreciated IMHO).

[robertoart]

That Mingus story sure put me in mind of that See No Evil movie (underappreciated IMHO).

Yeah I was disappointed when I first saw it, but watched a repeat a few years later when I was a bit older, and found lots of hilarious stuff. I just love the chemistry between Richard Pryor and Gene Wilder.