Kenny Ball RIP

[crisp]

The British trad trumpeter has died at 82:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-21700146

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2013/mar/07/jazz-trumpeter-kenny-ball-dies

Enjoyed his appearances on The Morecambe and Wise Show.

[Cyril]

Sad news!

R.I.P.

http://www.kennyball.co.uk

[BillF]

Sad to hear, though I did prefer Ronnie.

[J.A.W.]

Sorry to hear this. Though I was not exactly a "trad jazz" fan, I liked his early 1960s hit versions of "March of the Siamese Children", "The Green Leaves of Summer" and "Midnight in Moscow".

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

You wouldn't think that British dixieland revivalist bands would have been consistent hit-makers in the late fifties and early sixties... And even a film 'It's trad, dad'.

RIP Kenny.

MG

[J.A.W.]

You wouldn't think that British dixieland revivalist bands would have been consistent hit-makers in the late fifties and early sixties... And even a film 'It's trad, dad'.

RIP Kenny.

MG

Yep - Acker Bilk in his pre-"Stranger on the Shore" days had some success with "That's My Home" with his Paramount Jazz Band, and so did Chris Barber with his version of "Petite Fleur", and I'm sure there were others.

Edited March 7, 2013 by J.A.W.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

You wouldn't think that British dixieland revivalist bands would have been consistent hit-makers in the late fifties and early sixties... And even a film 'It's trad, dad'.

RIP Kenny.

MG

Yep - Acker Bilk in his pre-"Stranger on the Shore" days had some success with "That's My Home" with his Paramount Jazz Band, and so did Chris Barber with his version of "Petite Fleur", and I'm sure there were others.

Humphrey Lyttleton, too, with 'Bad penny blues' - a while before, though, in '56 I think.

The Temperance Seven had four hits in the early sixties. John R T Davies was a member.

And others, too, but I can't recall them.

MG

PS

Acker had 6 UK hits before 'Strangler on the shore', 3 in the top 10.

Alex Welsh had a small hit in '61.

Chris Barber managed 3 hits.

Kenny topped them all with 13 UK hits between 1961 and 1964 and another in '67.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

In the end, all those bands knew the music they were reviving very thoroughly and tried (mostly succeeding) to be true to it, but at the same time they could put on a good show. It wasn't all funny hats, though - I saw Kenny and Acker at Ealing Town Hall in '60 or '61 and it was always good music (though I was by no means a jazz afficionado in those days - well, I'm still not, so there!)

MG

[sidewinder]

He was a very good entertainer, for sure. Certainly on the entertainment 'A' list in the UK for many years.

Very sorry to see him leave us - RIP. Just Acker left of the old triumvirate of Kenny Baker, Acker Bilk and Humphrey Lyttleton.

Edited March 7, 2013 by sidewinder

[J.A.W.]

You wouldn't think that British dixieland revivalist bands would have been consistent hit-makers in the late fifties and early sixties... And even a film 'It's trad, dad'.

RIP Kenny.

MG

Yep - Acker Bilk in his pre-"Stranger on the Shore" days had some success with "That's My Home" with his Paramount Jazz Band, and so did Chris Barber with his version of "Petite Fleur", and I'm sure there were others.

Humphrey Lyttleton, too, with 'Bad penny blues' - a while before, though, in '56 I think.

The Temperance Seven had four hits in the early sixties. John R T Davies was a member.

And others, too, but I can't recall them.

MG

PS

Acker had 6 UK hits before 'Strangler on the shore', 3 in the top 10.

Alex Welsh had a small hit in '61.

Chris Barber managed 3 hits.

Kenny topped them all with 13 UK hits between 1961 and 1964 and another in '67.

Yes, of course, the Temperance Seven with John R.T. Davies, with novelty hits like "Pasadena" and "You're Driving Me Crazy". Funny at best. Trad jazz wasn't really my thing and I don't remember any other hits besides the ones I mentioned.

[crisp]

Anyone here know why trad took off in the UK when it did? It's legacy here is huge -- as I understand it Chris Barber's employment of Lonnie Donegan and Alexis Corner led to British skiffle and R&B and therefore the Beatles, Stones and all the rest. I can imagine why young Brits would have been looking for their own popular movement in the postwar years, but why traditional jazz?

[sidewinder]

Anyone here know why trad took off in the UK when it did? It's legacy here is huge -- as I understand it Chris Barber's employment of Lonnie Donegan and Alexis Corner led to British skiffle and R&B and therefore the Beatles, Stones and all the rest. I can imagine why young Brits would have been looking for their own popular movement in the postwar years, but why traditional jazz?

Cos the kids could dance to it?

There was quite a big scene around the 100 Club and various places in Soho. A case of London trends spreading into the boondocks?

[BillF]

Humphrey Lyttleton, too, with 'Bad penny blues' - a while before, though, in '56 I think.

Yes, bought on 78 in '56 along with those Bill Hayleys.

[J.A.W.]

Anyone here know why trad took off in the UK when it did? It's legacy here is huge -- as I understand it Chris Barber's employment of Lonnie Donegan and Alexis Corner led to British skiffle and R&B and therefore the Beatles, Stones and all the rest. I can imagine why young Brits would have been looking for their own popular movement in the postwar years, but why traditional jazz?

Wasn't trad jazz more like a fad? I think some of its musicians were influential, not so much trad jazz itself (Ken Colyer also comes to mind). Its heyday was short-lived if I remember correctly (late 1950s-early 1960s). By the way, wasn't Alexis Korner more into blues?

Edited March 7, 2013 by J.A.W.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Sidewinder's right - kids could dance to it. That's one level.

The other level was that it was all caught up with youthful rebellion; in simple terms, you could say a rejection of Perry Como, but that's too simple.

Here's a paragraph from the BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/20/newsid_3728000/3728225.stm

1957: Britons 'have never had it so good'

The British Prime Minister, Harold Macmillan, has made an optimistic speech telling fellow Conservatives that "most of our people have never had it so good".

That was definitely true, economically. But there was a serious view in left circles that what it all amounted to was complacency. From around this time, there was an interest, in those circles, in folk music - British and American. The revivalist jazz bands - Barber's in particular, through Lonnie Donegan - were able to pick this up and skiffle emerged in the late fifties. One thing that skiffle definitely had in that time was songs with interesting words; there was definitely meat in songs like 'Puttin on the style' which you didn't find in pop music of the time (and you don't find in the GAS either, for that matter). It wasn't just a British thing - it was happening in the US, too, with groups like the Weavers (definitely from the left) and the Kingston Trio. And the folk/protest movement grew out of those notions. But in Britain, the trad jazz bands were intellectually associated with those ideas and a lot of the two groups of people were friends, so they kind of got moved into centre stage. Unlike America, there was no black music over here and this may have made a difference, too; the nearest you got to black music over here - black music that was entertainment and dance-friendly - was those trad jazz bands (not the Hayes/Dankworth/Scott nexus).

As you all know, I'm making this up as I go along

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Anyone here know why trad took off in the UK when it did? It's legacy here is huge -- as I understand it Chris Barber's employment of Lonnie Donegan and Alexis Corner led to British skiffle and R&B and therefore the Beatles, Stones and all the rest. I can imagine why young Brits would have been looking for their own popular movement in the postwar years, but why traditional jazz?

Wasn't trad jazz more like a fad? I think some of its musicians were influential, not so much trad jazz itself (Ken Colyer also comes to mind). Its heyday was short-lived if I remember correctly (late 1950s-early 1960s). By the way, wasn't Alexis Korner more into blues?

Yes, but he played guitar in Barber's band. Cyril Davies was in that band, too. And Korner had a wide appreciation of blues which included Charles Mingus and Jimmy Smith, as well as Muddy Waters and Champion Jack Dupree. I used to have a Korner album in which they played 'Haitian fight song' and 'Back at the chicken shack'. And I have a vivid recollection of one Saturday night (1962) at the Ealing R&B club (which was Korner's regular gig) in which Long John Baldry and Mick Jagger sat in and duetted on Ray Charles' 'I got a woman'.

Oh, Korner also made an EP for Topic (a British folk music label) with Davy Graham - '3/4 AD' - one track of which was later appropriated by Simon & Garfunkel.

MG

[Big Beat Steve]

Suggested reading on this subject:

"The Restless Generation - How rock music changed the face of 1950s Britain" by Pete Frame (Rogan House)

The reasons behind the popularity of trad jazz as one important aspect of the YOUTH's pop music (as opposed to mainstream popular music churned out by the established powers in music business) of the day and its links with what became rock'n'roll and the British blues scene of the early 60s are described vividly and in detail here.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Big Beat Steve

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Looks interesting; thanks Steve.

MG

[crisp]

Thanks both MG and Steve. I'm still not sure however why young people latched on to traditional jazz and not something more contemporary. Were the trad bands in place anyway and just capitalised upon the interest in folk?

Perhaps it was it the usual interest people in their twenties take in what their parents listened to: I was born in the late Sixties and there were Beatles and easy listening revivals when I was in my twenties. Today people of this age are reviving folk, prog and other Seventies fads.

I'm OK on how trad led to skiffle and lots of bands starting which led to the beat boom, but not on why youngsters in the Fifties would be interested in reviving music that was minted in the Twenties.

[Cyril]

Thanks both MG and Steve. I'm still not sure however why young people latched on to traditional jazz and not something more contemporary. Were the trad bands in place anyway and just capitalised upon the interest in folk?

This is my childhood: memories of my grandparents. This kind of music makes me happy on a sunny day...

Edited March 8, 2013 by Cyril

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Thanks both MG and Steve. I'm still not sure however why young people latched on to traditional jazz and not something more contemporary. Were the trad bands in place anyway and just capitalised upon the interest in folk?

Yes - those bands were around in the forties.

MG

[A Lark Ascending]

I'm OK on how trad led to skiffle and lots of bands starting which led to the beat boom, but not on why youngsters in the Fifties would be interested in reviving music that was minted in the Twenties.

MG has given the reason. It was seen as 'authentic' as opposed to commercialised (of course, it wasn't) - the opposite of doggies in windows and rather small bikinis. The same reason folk music caught on [which got so purest in some clubs that you weren't allowed to play a guitar or sing a song that was not from your 'own tradition']. There was an enormous fear in Britain that we were about to buried in commercialised crassness (an idea that has never gone away). 15 years later I can remember being encouraged to read Richard Hoggart's 'The Uses of Literacy' that reflected these concerns.

I started listening to music in an era when 'trad' seemed just another form of vaudeville (I associated it with variety programmes on TV). Very hard to project to a time when it was seen as alternative.

A lot of 'the discerning listener's' disdain for things like mainstream pop or even smooth jazz is a learnt response that goes back at least to the 50s (and, I suspect, much earlier).

Edited March 8, 2013 by A Lark Ascending

[crisp]

Thanks both of you. I was curious why listeners were harking back to something from the Twenties when they had contemporary genres such as rock and roll or bebop to latch on to. It's as if, in order to have its own rock and roll movement, Britain had to recreate all of American music history leading up to it in super-quick time.

The whole "dirty boppers vs mouldy figs" rivalry is peculiar also. If I'd been around in the Fifties and had shunned the many fine bop and post-bop players around for the likes of Acker Bilk, I'd be kicking myself now.

Re Lark Ascending: I also recall trad bands being on TV when I was a child. I hated them as they seemed kitsch and twee. Of course, they were, but I've grown fond of these bands over the years, especially when they turn up on an old light entertainment show like Morecambe and Wise. There should be room for variations on "serious" music that are purely for fun.

[Big Beat Steve]

In the mid-90s I bought this 1962 "fanzine" book in a Norfolk thrift shop:

Fittingly (for THIS occasion), the back cover looks like this:

The brief 1-page bios (with pic) on the some 100 pages inside cover an odd range of "name jazz artists, ranging the entire scope from Basie, Blakey, Mingus, Maynard Ferguson, Kenton, Manne, Monk as well as Shake Keane and Tony Kinsey etc. etc. via Bo Diddley, Cleo Laine and Ray Charles to Sid Phillips and Nat Gonella and then on to Beryl Bryden, Colyer, Terry Lightfoot, George Melly and then Clinton Ford (who??), Ed Corrie (??), "The Alberts", The Clyde Valley Stompers as well as Nero & The Gladiators and last but not least a very youngish Dudley Moore. So it wasn't all trad but the trad share was substantial.

Wonder how many British jazz fans of 1962 would have appreciated ALL of them equally ...

Edited March 8, 2013 by Big Beat Steve

[A Lark Ascending]

Trad was also the musical style (or one of the) that accompanied the Ban the Bomb marches.

Hard to imagine to those of us for whom it screamed 'fuddy-duddy' as much as 'country and western'.

(I agree with BBS about the Frame book - excellent survey. There's some coverage in the recent Heining book on Brit jazz - I'll not repeat my impatience with that one!)

Edited March 8, 2013 by A Lark Ascending