Kenny Burrell

[robertoart]

You guys are all Chicken Little's. There is a/or several Jazz Music Dept.(s), in virtually every city, in every country, in Christendom.

Turning out scrupulously trained musicians. As long as that keeps happening (and it will), there will always be Jazz.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

You guys are all Chicken Little's. There is a/or several Jazz Music Dept.(s), in virtually every city, in every country, in Christendom.

Turning out scrupulously trained musicians. As long as that keeps happening (and it will), there will always be Jazz.

No; there'll always be neo-jazz.

MG

[robertoart]

You guys are all Chicken Little's. There is a/or several Jazz Music Dept.(s), in virtually every city, in every country, in Christendom.

Turning out scrupulously trained musicians. As long as that keeps happening (and it will), there will always be Jazz.

No; there'll always be neo-jazz.

MG

[Shawn]

You guys are all Chicken Little's. There is a/or several Jazz Music Dept.(s), in virtually every city, in every country, in Christendom.

Turning out scrupulously trained musicians. As long as that keeps happening (and it will), there will always be Jazz.

No; there'll always be neo-jazz.

MG

So what is the cutoff year for "real jazz" then? If all new musicians play "neo-jazz" then that means at some point the original version ceased to exist and has been replaced by a facsimile. What year did that happen out of curiosity?

[robertoart]

You guys are all Chicken Little's. There is a/or several Jazz Music Dept.(s), in virtually every city, in every country, in Christendom.

Turning out scrupulously trained musicians. As long as that keeps happening (and it will), there will always be Jazz.

No; there'll always be neo-jazz.

MG

So what is the cutoff year for "real jazz" then? If all new musicians play "neo-jazz" then that means at some point the original version ceased to exist and has been replaced by a facsimile. What year did that happen out of curiosity?

Shawn. I think the cut-off point is the release date of the Song X collaboration between Ornette and Pat Metheny

MG may have other ideas however?

[king ubu]

... I am also a composition teacher ...

So you must know all about voicings

You guys are all Chicken Little's. There is a/or several Jazz Music Dept.(s), in virtually every city, in every country, in Christendom.

Turning out scrupulously trained musicians. As long as that keeps happening (and it will), there will always be Jazz.

No; there'll always be neo-jazz.

MG

So what is the cutoff year for "real jazz" then? If all new musicians play "neo-jazz" then that means at some point the original version ceased to exist and has been replaced by a facsimile. What year did that happen out of curiosity?

Dang, MG! Smack dab in the middle!

Neo-jazz is where technique is perfected, where musicians are produced that are able to perform in any setting, be it a musical pit, a telly commercial, a "real" (dig?) jazz gig, backing a bad pop singer, playing in the band of some boring tv talent show ... you know, a musician's got to make a living (huh? that's a way of arguing you often get to hear when jobs in military industry are in danger, too ... kind of a reversal of cause and effect ... same with all those jazz colleges, in my opinion).

Jazz is where you get musicians expressing their feelings in their own way ... but the results might not necessarily be "jazz music", I guess

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

You guys are all Chicken Little's. There is a/or several Jazz Music Dept.(s), in virtually every city, in every country, in Christendom.

Turning out scrupulously trained musicians. As long as that keeps happening (and it will), there will always be Jazz.

No; there'll always be neo-jazz.

MG

So what is the cutoff year for "real jazz" then? If all new musicians play "neo-jazz" then that means at some point the original version ceased to exist and has been replaced by a facsimile. What year did that happen out of curiosity?

1994

OK, a word of explanation. When creative jazz ceases to command the enthusiasm of youth in the ghetto, the supply of talent dries up. Not that white musicians can't or haven't made fine contributions to the development of jazz, but the thrust has always come from the ghetto. Without that thrust the music is something else. The extent to which creative jazz engages the enthusiasm of young people in the ghetto can be seen in the jazz albums that make the R&B album charts. So, this little lot made the R&B charts in 1994.

Kenny G - Miracles: the holiday album

Us 3 - Hand on the torch

Al Jarreau - Tenderness

David Sanborn - Hear say

David Benoit & Russ Freeman - Benoit/Freeman project

Norman Brown - After the storm

Gerald Albright - Smooth

Najee - Share my world

Bob James - Restless

George Howard - A home far awy

Paul Hardcastle - Harcastle

Russ Freeman - Sahara

Diane Reeves - Art & survival

Everett Harp - Common ground

Incognito - Positivity

Jonathan Butler - Head to head

Miki Howard - Miki sings Billie

Nancy Wilson - Love Nancy

Phil Perry - Pure pleasure

Tom Scott - Reed my lips

MG

[John L]

OK, a word of explanation. When creative jazz ceases to command the enthusiasm of youth in the ghetto, the supply of talent dries up. Not that white musicians can't or haven't made fine contributions to the development of jazz, but the thrust has always come from the ghetto. Without that thrust the music is something else. The extent to which creative jazz engages the enthusiasm of young people in the ghetto can be seen in the jazz albums that make the R&B album charts. So, this little lot made the R&B charts in 1994.

Wouldn't bebop be an obvious exception to this rule? It came from back musicians, but not really from the ghetto, and never had too much popularity there.

Edited March 8, 2013 by John L

[Milestones]

Wow, this thing is going to hit 200 posts yet, and of course at this point it is barely touching on Kenny Burrell.

Ah, there's always that "art" and "commerce" debate, but let's not forget that many fine musicians spent a lot of hours as session men (from Clark Terry to Michael Brecker; KB for that matter), and they have not suffered for it. You do some things (usually low visibility) to get some bucks to pay some bills, yet you still have the time and energy for truly creative work.

The remarks about the ghetto strike me as very odd. Did Miles Davis grow up in the ghetto? Plus there's the fact that jazz has nearly always had a predominantly white audience. Do we currently have less African-Americans playing jazz? It sure seems that way, but maybe it's something similar to fewer African-American's playing baseball. And anyway can we say that musicians such as these don't offer creativity and pleasure: Joe Lovano, Bill Frisell, Mike Brecker, Charlie Haden, Chick Corea, Joe Zawinul, Stan Getz, Pat Metheny (ad infinitum).

Edited March 8, 2013 by Milestones

[JETman]

If it were truly the case that creative jazz ceased when it stopped commanding the attention of youth living in the ghetto, jazz would've died in the 50s when the likes of Max Roach and Sonny Rollins were still young men residing in Sugar Hill.

[JSngry]

,,,let's not forget that many fine musicians spent a lot of hours as session men (from Clark Terry to Michael Brecker; KB for that matter), and they have not suffered for it.

You're only able to do this is you have the skills (i.e. - technique) that the labor market demands at any given time. The labor market doesn't put out a call for creative jazz players to play a Fruit Loops jingle, nor does it feel sorry when trombone sections of top-shelf jazz players are no longer needed for cigarete commercials that no longer get made. It only wants people who they know can deliver a desirable product as efficiently as possible.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

OK, a word of explanation. When creative jazz ceases to command the enthusiasm of youth in the ghetto, the supply of talent dries up. Not that white musicians can't or haven't made fine contributions to the development of jazz, but the thrust has always come from the ghetto. Without that thrust the music is something else. The extent to which creative jazz engages the enthusiasm of young people in the ghetto can be seen in the jazz albums that make the R&B album charts. So, this little lot made the R&B charts in 1994.

Wouldn't bebop be an obvious exception to this rule? It came from back musicians, but not really from the ghetto, and never had too much popularity there.

I don't think that's true. If you look at the material played by soul jazz musicians in the sixties and early seventies - whose work was primarily aimed at the ghetto - you find a load of bebop tunes being played as part of a general 'menu' of entertainment alongside soul songs, blues, swing numbers and general pop songs. And don't forget that Diz and Bird and other beboppers got singles onto the R&B charts in the forties.

MG

[Steve Reynolds]

nothing like me posting this on a Kenny Burrell thread....

as has once been said, If Anthony Braxton is playing the contrabass saxophone in the middle of a forest and no one heard it, did it make a sound?

I saw a show int he fall of 2011 at The Stone with under 20 people in the crowd and it was as good a show as I have seen in 5 years.

An hour of improvised genius.

Does it matter that under 20 people were at the show?

*I* heard it.

If it was taped and released, maybe a few hundred might hear it.

different world today - MUCH more music available live and on record - and the quote, un-quote jazz scene is totally diverse and bifurcated....

but that unrecorded band - it was as good as jazz gets, IMO - that *one* show. As good as a great Dave Holland set 15 years back with the Knit packed to the rafters.

now of course many still do not call *that* music jazz, but that's an old tired refrain...hopefully here no one is still beating that broken drum...

well of course, there were no tunes unless Mat played a bit of one his sketches - but I believe the set that night was no tunes and maybe they took a break halfway through only to start up again - here we go, baby....and *eventually* they sure do go...but they never go...unknown tempo that is a non-tempo - and invented style on the drums from a master who played it all before and yete never *that* all-bfore stuff on record or live - yet almost every time, the *great* Randy Peterson almost breaks out into what would be the most intense post-bop groove ever - yet instead it is almost and maybe one day one might hear it....

according to some it ceases to matter when less people hear it - I say it matters just as much or more, as when the music is of it's time, is made purely for the music's sake and is of the artist's vision, soul and being, sometimes it might not be like anyone else's music.

tell that to Mat, Craig, Oscar, Ed and Randy

plus I venture to believe that all 5 of them are among the *greatest* musicians/practitioners on the their respective instrument(s) today and in a couple of cases - ever.

Anyone here see the *great* Ed Schuller live with a band like that?

Or the amazing Craig Taborn play totally improvised with dynamics from a baby grand that this boy has never witnessed? (well until Kris Davis played with Mat's band 6 month's later)

I doubt any of them came from the ghetto - but, alas, a couple of them might not be white and Ed, of course, played with a legend, Mal Waldron, for a good period of time - and maybe according to the legend, he should be one too.

then again, maybe Mal for some wasn't a legend, wasn't a visionary, as many only ever listened to the music before his death wish didn't pan out, and he re-invented himself and his music from 1969 through the rest of his life.

no - most just might have listened to the 50's and early 60's sides on the classic recordings - as by 1969 when Mal was free at last to play Mal, jazz was laready dead for so many...

Blood and Guts, baby

and for Mat...

Get Ready to Receive Yourself

[John L]

OK, a word of explanation. When creative jazz ceases to command the enthusiasm of youth in the ghetto, the supply of talent dries up. Not that white musicians can't or haven't made fine contributions to the development of jazz, but the thrust has always come from the ghetto. Without that thrust the music is something else. The extent to which creative jazz engages the enthusiasm of young people in the ghetto can be seen in the jazz albums that make the R&B album charts. So, this little lot made the R&B charts in 1994.

Wouldn't bebop be an obvious exception to this rule? It came from back musicians, but not really from the ghetto, and never had too much popularity there.

I don't think that's true. If you look at the material played by soul jazz musicians in the sixties and early seventies - whose work was primarily aimed at the ghetto - you find a load of bebop tunes being played as part of a general 'menu' of entertainment alongside soul songs, blues, swing numbers and general pop songs. And don't forget that Diz and Bird and other beboppers got singles onto the R&B charts in the forties.

MG

Sure, a lot of musicians who played soul jazz in the sixties and early seventies were fluent in bop, and brought those sensibilites to the music. But if you look at bebop in the 40s and 50s, the audience and fans were predominantly middle class and above. The sound of the ghetto was R&B / blues. Of course, the Central Avenue scene in L.A, where bop and R&B were almost bedfellows, may have been somewhat of an exception. .

On the other hand, I know what you are saying, and actually agree with it to a large degree. Even if bebop was "high brow," it still embodied the sound of the street and got a lot of its power from that source.

[robertoart]

OK, a word of explanation. When creative jazz ceases to command the enthusiasm of youth in the ghetto, the supply of talent dries up. Not that white musicians can't or haven't made fine contributions to the development of jazz, but the thrust has always come from the ghetto. Without that thrust the music is something else. The extent to which creative jazz engages the enthusiasm of young people in the ghetto can be seen in the jazz albums that make the R&B album charts. So, this little lot made the R&B charts in 1994.

Wouldn't bebop be an obvious exception to this rule? It came from back musicians, but not really from the ghetto, and never had too much popularity there.

I don't think that's true. If you look at the material played by soul jazz musicians in the sixties and early seventies - whose work was primarily aimed at the ghetto - you find a load of bebop tunes being played as part of a general 'menu' of entertainment alongside soul songs, blues, swing numbers and general pop songs. And don't forget that Diz and Bird and other beboppers got singles onto the R&B charts in the forties.

MG

Sure, a lot of musicians who played soul jazz in the sixties and early seventies were fluent in bop, and brought those sensibilites to the music. But if you look at bebop in the 40s and 50s, the audience and fans were predominantly middle class and above. The sound of the ghetto was R&B / blues. Of course, the Central Avenue scene in L.A, where bop and R&B were almost bedfellows, may have been somewhat of an exception. .

On the other hand, I know what you are saying, and actually agree with it to a large degree. Even if bebop was "high brow," it still embodied the sound of the street and got a lot of its power from that source.

The audiences may have been considerably middle class and White and above, but the musicians that made it weren't. They were the intellectual extension of Black community music.

And by the way MG, Hip Hop and Rap culture was well entrenched as the creative voice of the Black Community music a decade or more before 1994.

But had gained traction as a White mainstream entertainment by then.

Jamaaladeen Tacuma was incorporating it into Harmolodics by 1984.

Warhol and Basquiat were a tag team by then as well.

And don't anyone counteract with that pathetic (Basquiat was a middle class son from a rich neighbourhood shit). a la Max Roach, Miles Davis etc. al.

Edited March 8, 2013 by freelancer

[JSngry]

If there's an underlying assumption being made somewhere that "middle-class" and "ghetto" African-American peoples exist as two parallel cultures that never touched each other, especially when American Apartheid was in its fullest bloom, then excuse me while I LOL/ROTFLMFAO/Etc. Hard.

It's only been in my kid's lifetime that such a thing even began to exist as a viable ongoing possibility. And don't think that a quandary of no small magnitude has been the result for all concerned, and even some who aren't.

And if there's not an underlying assumption being made somewhere, then good, but, still.

[jlhoots]

And the beat goes on & on & on.

FWIW (probably very little), I saw / heard Ben Goldberg play some kind of gigantic clarinet last night.

Don't know what that means, but thought I'd add to the "thread count".

[sgcim]

As far as music from the ghetto nowadays, the only hope for any type of meaningful stuff will come from kids from the church IMHO. The secular kids are so fucking square, it makes me want to puke.

The church kids get turned on to some very hip stuff by people like Hezekiah Walker, and they want to emulate it. They're the only ones that seem to have a real love and gift for creative music, whether it's jazz, funk, fusion or Gospel/R&B.

[robertoart]

nothing like me posting this on a Kenny Burrell thread....

as has once been said, If Anthony Braxton is playing the contrabass saxophone in the middle of a forest and no one heard it, did it make a sound?

I saw a show int he fall of 2011 at The Stone with under 20 people in the crowd and it was as good a show as I have seen in 5 years.

An hour of improvised genius.

Does it matter that under 20 people were at the show?

*I* heard it.

If it was taped and released, maybe a few hundred might hear it.

different world today - MUCH more music available live and on record - and the quote, un-quote jazz scene is totally diverse and bifurcated....

but that unrecorded band - it was as good as jazz gets, IMO - that *one* show. As good as a great Dave Holland set 15 years back with the Knit packed to the rafters.

now of course many still do not call *that* music jazz, but that's an old tired refrain...hopefully here no one is still beating that broken drum...

well of course, there were no tunes unless Mat played a bit of one his sketches - but I believe the set that night was no tunes and maybe they took a break halfway through only to start up again - here we go, baby....and *eventually* they sure do go...but they never go...unknown tempo that is a non-tempo - and invented style on the drums from a master who played it all before and yete never *that* all-bfore stuff on record or live - yet almost every time, the *great* Randy Peterson almost breaks out into what would be the most intense post-bop groove ever - yet instead it is almost and maybe one day one might hear it....

according to some it ceases to matter when less people hear it - I say it matters just as much or more, as when the music is of it's time, is made purely for the music's sake and is of the artist's vision, soul and being, sometimes it might not be like anyone else's music.

tell that to Mat, Craig, Oscar, Ed and Randy

plus I venture to believe that all 5 of them are among the *greatest* musicians/practitioners on the their respective instrument(s) today and in a couple of cases - ever.

Anyone here see the *great* Ed Schuller live with a band like that?

Or the amazing Craig Taborn play totally improvised with dynamics from a baby grand that this boy has never witnessed? (well until Kris Davis played with Mat's band 6 month's later)

I doubt any of them came from the ghetto - but, alas, a couple of them might not be white and Ed, of course, played with a legend, Mal Waldron, for a good period of time - and maybe according to the legend, he should be one too.

then again, maybe Mal for some wasn't a legend, wasn't a visionary, as many only ever listened to the music before his death wish didn't pan out, and he re-invented himself and his music from 1969 through the rest of his life.

no - most just might have listened to the 50's and early 60's sides on the classic recordings - as by 1969 when Mal was free at last to play Mal, jazz was laready dead for so many...

Blood and Guts, baby

and for Mat...

Get Ready to Receive Yourself

Yeah, different world today. Hopefully no more assholes will try rewriting the old one in their own image.

Anyway what's wrong with Kenny Burrell? Surely these emerging giants you push must have some Kenny in their collections somewhere? Maybe he even taught some of them.

Edited March 9, 2013 by freelancer

[robertoart]

As far as music from the ghetto nowadays, the only hope for any type of meaningful stuff will come from kids from the church IMHO. The secular kids are so fucking square, it makes me want to puke.

The church kids get turned on to some very hip stuff by people like Hezekiah Walker, and they want to emulate it. They're the only ones that seem to have a real love and gift for creative music, whether it's jazz, funk, fusion or Gospel/R&B.

Not Fusion? Can't they stamp that out before it grows?

[Steve Reynolds]

nothing like me posting this on a Kenny Burrell thread....

as has once been said, If Anthony Braxton is playing the contrabass saxophone in the middle of a forest and no one heard it, did it make a sound?

I saw a show int he fall of 2011 at The Stone with under 20 people in the crowd and it was as good a show as I have seen in 5 years.

An hour of improvised genius.

Does it matter that under 20 people were at the show?

*I* heard it.

If it was taped and released, maybe a few hundred might hear it.

different world today - MUCH more music available live and on record - and the quote, un-quote jazz scene is totally diverse and bifurcated....

but that unrecorded band - it was as good as jazz gets, IMO - that *one* show. As good as a great Dave Holland set 15 years back with the Knit packed to the rafters.

now of course many still do not call *that* music jazz, but that's an old tired refrain...hopefully here no one is still beating that broken drum...

well of course, there were no tunes unless Mat played a bit of one his sketches - but I believe the set that night was no tunes and maybe they took a break halfway through only to start up again - here we go, baby....and *eventually* they sure do go...but they never go...unknown tempo that is a non-tempo - and invented style on the drums from a master who played it all before and yete never *that* all-bfore stuff on record or live - yet almost every time, the *great* Randy Peterson almost breaks out into what would be the most intense post-bop groove ever - yet instead it is almost and maybe one day one might hear it....

according to some it ceases to matter when less people hear it - I say it matters just as much or more, as when the music is of it's time, is made purely for the music's sake and is of the artist's vision, soul and being, sometimes it might not be like anyone else's music.

tell that to Mat, Craig, Oscar, Ed and Randy

plus I venture to believe that all 5 of them are among the *greatest* musicians/practitioners on the their respective instrument(s) today and in a couple of cases - ever.

Anyone here see the *great* Ed Schuller live with a band like that?

Or the amazing Craig Taborn play totally improvised with dynamics from a baby grand that this boy has never witnessed? (well until Kris Davis played with Mat's band 6 month's later)

I doubt any of them came from the ghetto - but, alas, a couple of them might not be white and Ed, of course, played with a legend, Mal Waldron, for a good period of time - and maybe according to the legend, he should be one too.

then again, maybe Mal for some wasn't a legend, wasn't a visionary, as many only ever listened to the music before his death wish didn't pan out, and he re-invented himself and his music from 1969 through the rest of his life.

no - most just might have listened to the 50's and early 60's sides on the classic recordings - as by 1969 when Mal was free at last to play Mal, jazz was laready dead for so many...

Blood and Guts, baby

and for Mat...

Get Ready to Receive Yourself

Yeah, different world today. Hopefully no more assholes will try rewriting the old one in their own image.

Anyway what's wrong with Kenny Burrell? Surely these emerging giants you push must have some Kenny in their collections somewhere? Maybe he even taught some of them. Nothing wrong with Kenny or any of the legends of this music.

Question is do you have any of these guys records in your collection?

Are you supporting the risk taking creative musicians of today who play only for the music?

Mal, Verve, Black and Blue, baby

Edited March 9, 2013 by Steve Reynolds

[robertoart]

Got some Craig Taborn with James Carter, which I don't get into much actually. Got some sessions with Ed Schuller. It's always possible to check out the musicians you so breathlessly enthuse for though. Did you run home from the gig to post this ?

And what do you mean by 'is made purely for the music's sake'? What other sakes are in play when this is not the case?

And of course the experience of the music occurs when there is anyone there or not. I'm sure most musicians would attest to some of the most rewarding experiences as being in the communion of other players in private settings...so sure if Anthony Braxton is in the forest, it's still music. We can even listen to his solo saxophone recordings and add some wolf calls (or in my case Dingo barks) to create a kind of mis en scene. But yeah, I would be dishonest if I didn't say I was a teency bit jealous of you being there in the Big Apple and having all this history being made right in front of you.

Give us all some Youtube links maybe, if that doesn't corrupt the integrity of your 'live' communion

[robertoart]

Kenny speaks!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT95IxecQY4

[Steve Reynolds]

I don't post links but if you search vision fest 2012 there are a couple of good ones including In Order to Survive, Paul Dunmall, The Thing with Joe McPhee, Kidd Jordan's band with Drake, Gayle and others.

Good quality sound and video

[robertoart]

I don't post links but if you search vision fest 2012 there are a couple of good ones including In Order to Survive, Paul Dunmall, The Thing with Joe McPhee, Kidd Jordan's band with Drake, Gayle and others.

Good quality sound and video

Thanks. I'll do some listening. The Thing have been around for a long time if I remember. It was hard to find some of those earlier projects over here in the days before the net connected people up. I used to get copies of Wire magazine and literally make International phone calls to 'record shops' or distributers in those days, hoping I could track down some of the recordings of the Artists I liked or read about. I rang Moers once and got an answering machine in German, left a message, but they didn't get back to me