Was Tal Farlow subtle and swinging?

[robertoart]

[jazzbo]

A master.

[mjzee]

I don't think rhythm was his strong point, but he did have a lot of drive. Agreed, a master, and that Mosaic is a classic.

[Bluesnik]

Agreed, a master, and that Mosaic is a classic.

Yes, I also like that Mosaic very much.

[.:.impossible]

Listen to him play the baseline during this bass solo. If rhythm was not his strong point, he just got lucky that night!

[sgcim]

I don't know where you're going with this, but Benson was among Farlow's biggest admirers.

Maybe he wasn't as subtle as Bickert and Raney, but I think he and Costa (and Burke on Yesterdays) sound excellent on both cuts, but the sound quality on ATTYA is lousy compared to the vinyl and CD recordings I have of it.

The Yesterdays solo is better than ATTYA, but what is your complaint about Farlow on these cuts?

Benson plays a lot more pentatonic (major) than Farlow does.

[danasgoodstuff]

FWIW, I saw Tal in MN 20+ years ago, was inspired to stay for a second set but then ready to leave half way through that. So, 'subtle & swinging' sure, sometimes.

[Larry Kart]

I heard Farlow in a club for the first time rather late in his career -- maybe mid-1980s -- and while quite familiar with his recorded work over the course of his career to that date, I was bowled over by near-incredible rhythmic fluidity (yes) of his playing, plus the inseparable-from-this rush of brilliant harmonic and melodic thinking. The first thought that came to my mind was Tatum-esque; the second was, again a la Tatum, that at times I barely could take in all that I was hearing. I say this BTW in full awareness that Farlow does have time problems on some of his Concord albums that preceded the engagement that I attended. Go figure.

[robertoart]

I don't know where you're going with this, but Benson was among Farlow's biggest admirers.

Maybe he wasn't as subtle as Bickert and Raney, but I think he and Costa (and Burke on Yesterdays) sound excellent on both cuts, but the sound quality on ATTYA is lousy compared to the vinyl and CD recordings I have of it.

The Yesterdays solo is better than ATTYA, but what is your complaint about Farlow on these cuts?

Benson plays a lot more pentatonic (major) than Farlow does.

Actually I do adore the playing of Tal Farlow. Though there is a bit of a maverick approach to 'some' of his concept, that can seem very dazzling or musically verbose rather than subtle - something Vernon Reid refers to in a contemporary idiom as, 'because we can' music. However, the dominant influence of the virtuosic Piano players of Bop, gives this a more grounded context perhaps.

One thing I am reminded of when I listen to Farlow, is how the Jazz repertoire was so very much the Pop music of its - and Farlow's generation's - day. I think you can actually hear that they 'knew' these songs and melodies before they learned to play them. So different to approaching them from todays perspective, where we learn them as a form of orthodoxy and 'learning'. They still become second nature to us, but hearing Farlow play them is to hear them played as 'first nature'. The tunes just seem to flow out of his big hands like mother's milk.

I also hear a 'lot' of Farlow in Benson's lines, especially on Rhythm Changes burners and Standards. More so than Joe Pass, who could display a similar fluidity. Yes Benson is 'Pentatonic (major)' but they merge in Mixolydian heaven. Also I think Benson plays out of chord shapes a lot more than is generally perceived, and this brings his lines even closer to Farlow.

I had heard people talk of the 'timing' issues. Emily Remler (I think), used to talk about this. But I did not know where they were originating their criticisms from.

Also when you mention Farlow 'transferring' Bud Powell to guitar, do we know if Farlow ever spoke directly about this. Was it an actual 'purposeful' thing for Farlow, or rather a parallel or 'zeitgeist' kind of thing.

I know I have heard him talk of Charlie Christian being his primary inspiration (as Jim Hall and to a lesser degree Kessel and Herb Ellis also say), but can't remember him speaking directly of Powell or even Tatum, though he probably did in some context.

[fasstrack]

Larry, I heard Tal a lot live around the same period, the 80s. I was at the Public Theater performance that was filmed for the documentary Talmadge Holt Farlow, and heard him a lot in clubs. His inventiveness never ceased, but his control of time was pretty abominable, sorry to say. He was rushing and it was out of control and hard to listen to-a drag in view of the fantastic harmonic content and ideas. I enjoy and admire Tal, but I can't lie.

[robertoart]

Larry, I heard Tal a lot live around the same period, the 80s. I was at the Public Theater performance that was filmed for the documentary Talmadge Holt Farlow, and heard him a lot in clubs. His inventiveness never ceased, but his control of time was pretty abominable, sorry to say. He was rushing and it was out of control and hard to listen to-a drag in view of the fantastic harmonic content and ideas. I enjoy and admire Tal, but I can't lie.

I knew all this guitar talk would bring you back out of the woodwork.

Do you think Benson's lines owe something considerable to Farlow?

Edited February 18, 2013 by freelancer

[fasstrack]

I know Benson admired Tal, as Wes Montgomery did. Tal was pretty amazing, with incredible ears and hands. I never detected a direct influence on Benson though. Tal's pretty hard to imitate anyway. The only guitarist I heard use some of Tal's type of lines and phrases, only more relaxed, was Barry Galbraith when he soloed. And Tal also played more intervalically and less scale-wise than Benson, who also has more of a blues feel. Two great players, apples and oranges.

[robertoart]

I know Benson admired Tal, as Wes Montgomery did. Tal was pretty amazing, with incredible ears and hands. I never detected a direct influence on Benson though. Tal's pretty hard to imitate anyway. The only guitarist I heard use some of Tal's type of lines and phrases, only more relaxed, was Barry Galbraith when he soloed. And Tal also played more intervalically and less scale-wise than Benson, who also has more of a blues feel. Two great players, apples and oranges.

I always thought this one was Tal like.

Maybe it's just the tempo. BTW this is a live version of Jimmy Smith's Ready n Able, Benson originally did on Cookbook. Not Godchild as the uploader says.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWoQb7YYLns

Edited February 18, 2013 by freelancer

[fasstrack]

Unfortunately I'm not at a computer now, but will give it a listen when I am.

[CJ Shearn]

I know Benson admired Tal, as Wes Montgomery did. Tal was pretty amazing, with incredible ears and hands. I never detected a direct influence on Benson though. Tal's pretty hard to imitate anyway. The only guitarist I heard use some of Tal's type of lines and phrases, only more relaxed, was Barry Galbraith when he soloed. And Tal also played more intervalically and less scale-wise than Benson, who also has more of a blues feel. Two great players, apples and oranges.

I always thought this one was Tal like.

Maybe it's just the tempo. BTW this is a live version of Jimmy Smith's Ready n Able, Benson originally did on Cookbook. Not Godchild as the uploader says.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWoQb7YYLns

That's pretty hot. I can hear a bit of Tal's conception there. I hear a lot of Tal from hearing the clip in this thread (not that familiar with Farlow's playing sadly) in early Kenny Burrell, because of the way Kenny approached more up tempo bop things back then, and also their tones.

[robertoart]

Link a Kenny Burrell tune or two if you feel like it. It would be good to listen to and compare. I was just listening to Mule a few minutes ago, but that one is a slow burner. Kenny Burrell doesn't seem to get enough love as he should. I wonder if Tal Farlow and Kenny Burrell knew each other in those early days. The Red Norvo recordings are from 1949 and Kenny Burrell started recording with Dizzy Gillespie in !951.

[CJ Shearn]

http://youtu.be/mEbpiZcp9wo Where I can hear more of direct (or perhaps indirect) Tal-Kenny influence

Then Pat Metheny on his now classic bop burner "Go(Get It)" I think this is where you can hear an amalgam of everything. I think I can hear a Bickert thing in some of Pat's more medium tempo tunes. Such a great solo. http://youtu.be/Rn-Sjto-hLM

Kenny straight burning on Bird. Kenny Burrell and George Benson were the first guitarists I heard when I was a little kid and they've always been favorites of mine. http://youtu.be/sXY-XVr5b4Y

[Milestones]

For what it's worth, I've heard John McLaughlin calling Farlow a major influence.

[robertoart]

The Metheny track is brilliant. Very much his own man. Maybe Jim Hall on steroids.

Must get that Cd.

Early Burrell I forget to listen to enough, although the live Dorham is a favourite.

The vangelder original vinyl must be worth a fortune nowadays.

And Farlow 'must' have been the big influence on McLaughlin.

[CJ Shearn]

I agree Farlow must have influenced McLaughlin. Pat Metheny, as he's stated before, Jim Hall is his biggest influences, as is Ornette, Wes (less apparent because he doesn't play entire phrases in octaves) Kenny Burrell. The entire jazz guitar tradition comes out in Pat's playing, just filtered through his own lens, Pat's created his own bop vocabulary too. I think when he plays hollowbody, his lines are most like a saxophonist, when he plays the synth (the GR300, many people hate it but I love it) he's more like a trumpeter, which was his first instrument. I think "Trio 99-00" is still available, the original print run with the slipcase with a circular hole punched so you can see the disc design isn't. "Trio Live" is the album to get with that Grenadier and Stewart trio though. "Day Trip" and "Tokyo Day Trip" with Christian McBride and Antonio Sanchez are just as good, "Day Trip" features a beautiful ballad "Is This America?" on the Manzer nylon string, and "When We Were Free" in a different key and played in the same arrangement they did live, and a reworked "The Red One" with a stronger raggae feel than the original, really cool. On "Tokyo Day Trip" my favorite tunes by far are "Tromso" a ballad with the electric sitar, a throwback to the ECM days and "Travelling Fast" which I'm pretty sure is a burning rework of "Travels", the changes sound similar. http://youtu.be/vd_TUn9zqjI I would love to hear Pat do an organ trio record with Larry Goldings and Jack DeJohnette sometime.

Edited February 22, 2013 by CJ Shearn