Donald Byrd

[JSngry]

Nathan Davis and Henry Franklin, eh?

[clifford_thornton]

Yeah saw that, looks interesting.

[David Ayers]

I guess you guys got the mail saying the Montreux date will be released on CD?

[JohnS]

Yeah, I see that. Listened to part of the first track. To be fair, it is better than the Mizzell studio stuff, are they planning to issue this on CD hence the preview?

Just sampled the opening track. If it's mostly like that it's a decent addition to the Byrd discography.

[king ubu]

I guess you guys got the mail saying the Montreux date will be released on CD?

Didn't see where it says so ... frankly the mumbo-jumbo language in the mail sounded weird to me, all the way.

[David Ayers]

I guess you guys got the mail saying the Montreux date will be released on CD?

Didn't see where it says so ... frankly the mumbo-jumbo language in the mail sounded weird to me, all the way.

You may be right. Well, in fact, you are right.

[king ubu]

I followed the link and again found that blatant marketing speak ... instead of a cover pic of the CD they'll release ... guess the later is nowhere in sight, as otherwise they'd certainly mentioned it? Too bad ... guess I'll have to get an earful of that stream as long as it lasts.

[CJ Shearn]

I think it's just that free stream. I don't know if they are releasing it as a CD. They should just create a CD cover like the previous "Cookin at Montreux", copy the way the BNLA CD's look in Japan and that's that.

[Mark Stryker]

Posted this info in the other thread running on this topic: BN folks say no plans to release on CD. Download will be available as a stream indefinitely.

[Mark Stryker]

Re: Byrd's "A New Perspective"

What are the precursors to the marriage of modern jazz and gospel choir on this record? Anybody do something like this previously?

[Larry Kart]

Probably not a strict precursor (though she may have been planning/meditating on this and similar later pieces for some time) but how about Mary Lou Williams' "St. Martin de Porres/Black Christ of the Andes" (rec. 1963)?

And "The Devil":

[Mark Stryker]

Thanks, Larry.

Interesting -- I don't know this record at all! From the same year as "A New Perspective." My sense is that perhaps no one had literally married a gospel choir with modern jazz until Byrd did it, but that related ideas and concepts were undoubtedly in the air.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Thanks, Larry.

Interesting -- I don't know this record at all! From the same year as "A New Perspective." My sense is that perhaps no one had literally married a gospel choir with modern jazz until Byrd did it, but that related ideas and concepts were undoubtedly in the air.

It should be noted that the singers on 'A new perspective' were not a gospel choir. They were all stated in the notes to be graduates from the Manhattan School of Music and nothing in the notes implied that they ever sang in a church choir.

I don't think any jazz albums have yet been made with a genuine gospel choir; the nearest was 'The gospel soul of Houston Person' (Savoy 14471, P-Vine PCD5345) in 1978, in which Houston was accompanied by the Atlanta Philharmonic Chorale and the Ogletree Brothers. In contrast, a number of secular pop records have been made with gospel choirs:

Ray Stevens' 'Everything is beautiful' was made with the BC&M (Baptist, Catholic & Methodist) Choir of Nashville;

Paul Simon's 'Still crazy after all these years' featured 1 cut with the Jessy Dixon Singers and 1 with the Chicago Community Choir; and

Foreigner's 'I want to know what love is' was made with the New Jersey Mass Choir.

You have to have big money in your budget to employ a gospel choir. More than most jazz musicians can get.

MG

[Noj]

I've heard others say they find A New Perspective to be "embarrassing;" that the vocal parts are some sort of capitulation to an undeserving audience or that it's a poorly conceived fusion of sounds that don't belong together (I've never quite understood the problem). I'm wondering if the same critics have the same reaction to Black Christ Of The Andes or any of the recordings MG just listed.

[mjzee]

Paul Simon's 'Still crazy after all these years' featured 1 cut with the Jessy Dixon Singers and 1 with the Chicago Community Choir

Also this:

[JSngry]

I don't think any jazz albums have yet been made with a genuine gospel choir;

uhhh...

[Mark Stryker]

"Gospel" is a slippery category. In relation to "A New Perspective" the issue is not whether the singers were either a standing church choir or an adhoc ensemble from the Manhattan School but whether the idiom in which they were singing qualifies as "gospel." Frankly, I'm not sure. We have an unbelievably great African American choir in Detroit -- the Brazeal Dennard Chorale -- that specializes in spirituals but also performs standard classical literature and they go nuts when they are called a gospel choir, because they associate the term with a more sanctified style, more vernacular, accompanied by electric organ/rhythm section etc. There is a formal, refined sound to the choir on the record -- the spirituals are there but its not sanctified as I would understand it.

Can anybody offer of precise definition of "gospel" or what's the best way to refer to the choral part of "A New Perspective." Calling Allen Lowe, perhaps?

Edited March 17, 2013 by Mark Stryker

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I don't think any jazz albums have yet been made with a genuine gospel choir;

uhhh...

Didn't know about that one, Jim. I have a nice Savoy album by the J C White Singers.

Max Roach is a guy I admire, rather than like much, but I'll look into getting that one.

Oh, and that reminds me of this one

Jack McDuff - Lift every voice and sing - JAM - which has on several tracks the accompaniment of the Mt Pisgah Baptist Church Choir of Chicago on most tracks - Coltrane's 'Naima', Lorber's 'Night love', Scott-Heron's 'A prayer for everybody', as well as the title track.

Memory doesn't work flawlessly

MG

[robertoart]

and of course....

not sure of the 'gospel' bone fide's of the small choir.

And then again...

Wonder how much the choir got paid for this one?

When Lennon wanted something similar on one of his greatest songs 'Across The Universe' in 1968,

he dragged some fans in from outside the studio to use as 'voices'.

Must have been the Heroin

[CJ Shearn]

I've heard others say they find A New Perspective to be "embarrassing;" that the vocal parts are some sort of capitulation to an undeserving audience or that it's a poorly conceived fusion of sounds that don't belong together (I've never quite understood the problem). I'm wondering if the same critics have the same reaction to Black Christ Of The Andes or any of the recordings MG just listed.

Well, I think with "A New Perspective", personally, it's an album I love. There might be some merit to the fact some feel it's a fusion of things that don't blend well. The choir is rather ragged, and under rehearsed (it seems) and theres spots you really hear it. The liners say they were all recent graduates of the Manhattan school of Music, right? I think Donald may have wanted to bring some attention to them and gave them the opportunity to record. Also, the fact it's wordless maybe for some, takes away from the meaning of the subject matter of the album, I don't know. Just a thought. "Beyond the Wall" by Kenny Garrett has an extension, I feel, of this type of vocal style on several tracks.

[robertoart]

Another New Perspective lover here. I haven't listened to it in ages. Had it on a cassette

Would really like to hear the original BN vinyl.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Despite what I said, I've got it and love it. I just don't think it's a merging of two kinds of music; just a jazz record with an unusual approach.

MG

[Mark Stryker]

Answering my own question, Max Roach's "It's Time" incorporates a choir and was recorded in Feb. 1962, about 11 months prior to "A New Perspective." Unless anyone can come up with evidence to the contrary, I think this may be the first time a choir in the African American tradition was mixed with a modern jazz group.