Late Period Coltrane

[Sundog]

So, I've been slowly and more or less chronologically going through Trane's catalog. I'm to the point where I can no longer "avoid" his late period work. I actually went out and bought a number of albums that certainly qualify as late period. They are Stellar Regions, Interstellar Space, Sun Ship, Kulu Se' Mama. Got these all used for 6-9 bucks a piece. Also picked up Ascension brand new for under 10 bucks.

My question to you is, how should I approach listening these albums? Should I do it in chronological order? Other preferred methods? Interested in hearing about your listening experiences with this music.

P.S. I've actually listened to Sun Ship already and found it to be very accessible to these ears.

[couw]

the water is gonna be equally deep from whichever side you decide to jump in.

I don't remember how I got my feet wet on this but I found I could easily swim with the current and have fun along the way. Great music if the mood is right (which admittedly isn't very often).

[Parkertown]

Make sure the wife is out of the house...

My copy of OM has a sticky note on it that says:

"Note to Shelley: NEVER PLAY!!!"

[Nate Dorward]

Sun Ship & Interstellar Space are the most "accessible" of that batch of material. But basically, just give it a close & persistent listen. Still not sure after all these years what I think of Ascension, really.

[Sundog]

Make sure the wife is out of the house...

My copy of OM has a sticky note on it that says:

"Note to Shelley: NEVER PLAY!!!"

[king ubu]

I started on that trip with "Sun Ship", too, after having been rather bevildered by first hearing parts of "Ascension"... May I suggest you try "First Meditations" (this and "Sun Ship" are sort of the bridge between "classic" and late Trane, I guess), and listen to it back on back with "Meditations" - this one, in my opinion is one of Coltrane's strongest and most beautiful recorded works! The comparison may help to see common things, to hear some continuity. Then, "Interstellar Space" is GREAT! (Ask our friend JSngry - or search for his post on that album)

ubu

[couw]

and play "Welcome" from Kulu a couple of hundred times as well.

[street singer]

Since you've already heard 'Sunship', I would say give 'Interstellar Space' a listen. As suggested previously, 'Meditations' may help "bridge the gap", so to speak...but if you don't wish to purchase a copy of that one yet, go with 'Interstellar Space'. My favorite of the bunch...well, that and 'Meditations'.

[Guy Berger]

So, I've been slowly and more or less chronologically going through Trane's catalog.  I'm to the point where I can no longer "avoid" his late period work.  I actually went out and bought a number of albums that certainly qualify as late period.  They are Stellar Regions, Interstellar Space, Sun Ship, Kulu Se' Mama.  Got these all used for 6-9 bucks a piece.  Also picked up Ascension brand new for under 10 bucks.

My question to you is, how should I approach listening these albums?  Should I do it in chronological order?  Other preferred methods?  Interested in hearing about your listening experiences with this music.

P.S. I've actually listened to Sun Ship already and found it to be very accessible to these ears.

You are off to a good start! I wouldn't worry too much about listening to things in a chronological order -- Trane was experimenting with a bunch of different approaches in the final two years and his progression wasn't obviously linear.

I started with Meditations, but the two albums that really developed my understanding of this music are Sun Ship and Interstellar Space. Sun Ship is important because it takes the "classic quartet" concept as far as it could go; Interstellar Space is important because it highlights the unfettered flow of Trane's ideas (and he was full of them around this time), unencumbered by piano or bass.

Aside from those two recordings, Ascension is the first of his "expanded group" experiments. This is sort of avant-garde equivalent of a Prestige blowing session -- some powerful solos by Trane and others (and incredible ensemble-improv sections), but a little lacking in structure for my tastes.

Kulu Se Mama has the title piece, which ties to the Ascension thing to African rhythms. "Welcome" is a beautiful ballad, an extremely tender piece of music recorded at a time when he was typecast for making "difficult" or "noisy" music. "Vigil" is one of the best tracks from this period -- a blistering, no-holds-barred duet between Trane and Elvin. The intensity just doesn't let up.

Stellar Regions covers similar ground to Interstellar Space but within a quartet context. There's some beautiful music here ("Offering", "Seraphic Light", etc).

Guy

[Sundog]

and play "Welcome" from Kulu a couple of hundred times as well.

I put this one on to do just that, and ended up listening to the whole thing. Great album. Welcome has a beautiful feel to it similiar to After The Rain.

Thanks for all the suggestions and comments. Keep um' coming!

[JSngry]

Just do it.

[couw]

and enjoy

[JSngry]

Having said that, INTERSTELLAR SPACE is the keeper, the one to have if you're having only one. ff that one never, ever reveals itself to you even slightly, it's not the music's fault. ACENSION is nothing but a blues jam session taken to the n-th degree, SUN SHIP & both "Meditations" albums are pretty accessible if you're even slightly inclined towards the music, check out THE OLANTUNJI CONCERT if you're not phased by amateur recording quality, you might want to save OM until later, get to LIVE AT THE VILLAGE VANGUARD AGAIN sooner than later, and cautiously bring in the wife for EXPRESSIONS, if she does stuff like turning the headlights off for a few seconds at night on unlit highways yet still likes candlelight and bubble baths.

An incomplete list, but there it is. And remember - the newest music of this bunch is almost 40 years old and it's both ahead of its time, very much of it, and totally outside of it, dpending on which aspect(s) of it you focus on. One thing it's NOT is disorganized chaos. Anybody who tells you otherwise is either not paying attention or is letting their negative emotions about the music interfere with an objective look at what's going on inside it.

[chris olivarez]

I haven't gotten their yet and the operative word is yet. Its a period of Tranes work I want to check out when I have some time to invest for it.Thank you for this most informative thread.

[AmirBagachelles]

For me, it's Ascension. Incredible passion, a trip through many minds all at once. My favorite musical swirl. And it helped me to enjoy so many other kinds of out music. Play It Loud.

[Morganized]

I haven't gotten their yet and the operative word is yet. Its a period of Tranes work I want to check out when I have some time to invest for it.Thank you for this most informative thread.

Chris,

More than a few of us here are walking down this path. My question, " Is there a distination or is it just a journey." I don't know if anyone "gets there yet". Some are further along the journey but there is a lot here to absorb. I agree that this thread is a good one . I am really enjoying the comments. I have sampled many of the titles mentioned here but I am admitedly "not there yet" either.....if that can even be achieved.

[chris olivarez]

Good point Morganized.

[JSngry]

Honestly, I don't see why this music seems to "intimidate" so many people. It really seems pretty straightforward to me in terms of what's being done, although, yeah, the emotional intensity is usually pretty high.

But if you are hip to the fact that life moves in many tempos simultaneously and that there's more dimensions than just three and that by utilizing intervals and rhythms other than the familiar ones we've all known since before birth you can begin to get a glimpse of them (how much of a glimpse is still up in the air, I think, as is what you do with it after you get it, but the door's been opened by more people than Trane, so it's pretty much impossible to turn back now), then I'd think that this music would be no more intimidating than Bartok, or Hendryx, or gamelan, or really deep hip-hop, or any music that refuse to be bound by three-dimensional perceptions and the perceptions therein.

In other words, it's not that Trane makes everything else obsolete or unimportant. Oh god no. It's just that some new doors are opened in this music, some new possibilities about life that are all but inevitable, given humanity's continuous evolution in therms of how we percieve reality. Where's the destination? Knowing that there is no destination, that even not taking a journey is still a journey. No, I don't think it's about a "quest" or some such, not for us today. For Trane himself, though, I'm sure it was, just as it is for all explorers. But after they discover whatever it is that they discover, it's there. Ignore it or discount it if you wish, but time marches on and knowledge ignored will not be denied. It will come back to bite you in the ass. Maybe not you personally, but "you" collectively.

Ever feel like the last 20 years or so have begun to feel increasingly "crowded", how it feels like we're still trying to live in a way that is increasingly becoming the equivalent of trying to put the square peg in the round hole, even if it means using a sledgehammer? Well, maybe it's because that's what we're doing to ourselves. We've been to the moon, we've split the atom, we've discovered DNA, we've figured out a way to be instanly connected with darn near any place in the world, we've done all this amazing shit that whether we realize it or not is opening up new "space" for our psyches to inhabit, and there is still a rather large percentage of the population who are living under the perception that life is lived in 4/4 time, chromaticism is an often=dangerous luxury rather than a fact of life, harmony should be tertiary and primarily diatonic, and that time and rhythm are inevitable cosmic wholes rather than specific selections from a bottomless pit of potential combinations.

Well, once upon a time, that was the truth, because that was what we knew, pretty much all of us. But damn it, people keep DISCOVERING that, yeah, that's all true and stuff, but it's not the WHOLE truth, and the more shit gets discovered, the harder it is to ignore it. Yet there's a MASSIVE micro- and macro- structure in place that is ENTIRELY based on that once-whole-but-now-partial truth, and those structures aren't going to give up (or at least share) without a helluva fight. That's not necessarily a sign of malevolence (sometimes, anyway), it's just the nature of things, inertia and all that. But they're going to have to make room, because if something is REALLY true, then it can't be destroyed. It MUST find a place, either peacefully or not.

"Comfort Zone" is sometimes a beautiful thing, but sometimes it's just greed that chooses to exploit the self rather than others. People apparently don't like the "radical" change that comes with new discovery, but they don't seem to like the stifling effects of living in willful ignorance either. So where does that leave us? Damned if I know, and damned if I really care anymore. I don't at all mind going back and forth as the need and/or mood arises, but I'll NEVER pretend that back is front and that front doesn't exsist, or that you'll fall off when you get to the edge of the Earth. Besides, even if you did, you'd still be SOMEWHERE. You're always somewhere.

God bless Malachi Favors.

[Morganized]

Honestly, I don't see why this music seems to "intimidate" so many people. It really seems pretty straightforward to me in terms of what's being done, although, yeah, the emotional intensity is usually pretty high.

But if you are hip to the fact that life moves in many tempos simultaneously and that there's more dimensions than just three and that by utilizing intervals and rhythms other than the familiar ones we've all known since before birth you can begin to get a glimpse of them (how much of a glimpse is still up in the air, I think, as is what you do with it after you get it, but the door's been opened by more people than Trane, so it's pretty much impossible to turn back now), then I'd think that this music would be no more intimidating than Bartok, or Hendryx, or gamelan, or really deep hip-hop, or any music that refuse to be bound by three-dimensional perceptions and the perceptions therein.

In other words, it's not that Trane makes everything else obsolete or unimportant. Oh god no. It's just that some new doors are opened in this music, some new possibilities about life that are all but inevitable, given humanity's continuous evolution in therms of how we percieve reality. Where's the destination? Knowing that there is no destination, that even not taking a journey is still a journey. No, I don't think it's about a "quest" or some such, not for us today. For Trane himself, though, I'm sure it was, just as it is for all explorers. But after they discover whatever it is that they discover, it's there. Ignore it or discount it if you wish, but time marches on and knowledge ignored will not be denied. It will come back to bite you in the ass. Maybe not you personally, but "you" collectively.

Ever feel like the last 20 years or so have begun to feel increasingly "crowded", how it feels like we're still trying to live in a way that is increasingly becoming the equivalent of trying to put the square peg in the round hole, even if it means using a sledgehammer? Well, maybe it's because that's what we're doing to ourselves. We've been to the moon, we've split the atom, we've discovered DNA, we've figured out a way to be instanly connected with darn near any place in the world, we've done all this amazing shit that whether we realize it or not is opening up new "space" for our psyches to inhabit, and there is still a rather large percentage of the population who are living under the perception that life is lived in 4/4 time, chromaticism is an often=dangerous luxury rather than a fact of life, harmony should be tertiary and primarily diatonic, and that time and rhythm are inevitable cosmic wholes rather than specific selections from a bottomless pit of potential combinations.

Well, once upon a time, that was the truth, because that was what we knew, pretty much all of us. But damn it, people keep DISCOVERING that, yeah, that's all true and stuff, but it's not the WHOLE truth, and the more shit gets discovered, the harder it is to ignore it. Yet there's a MASSIVE micro- and macro- structure in place that is ENTIRELY based on that once-whole-but-now-partial truth, and those structures aren't going to give up (or at least share) without a helluva fight. That's not necessarily a sign of malevolence (sometimes, anyway), it's just the nature of things, inertia and all that. But they're going to have to make room, because if something is REALLY true, then it can't be destroyed. It MUST find a place, either peacefully or not.

"Comfort Zone" is sometimes a beautiful thing, but sometimes it's just greed that chooses to exploit the self rather than others. People apparently don't like the "radical" change that comes with new discovery, but they don't seem to like the stifling effects of living in willful ignorance either. So where does that leave us? Damned if I know, and damned if I really care anymore. I don't at all mind going back and forth as the need and/or mood arises, but I'll NEVER pretend that back is front and that front doesn't exsist, or that you'll fall off when you get to the edge of the Earth. Besides, even if you did, you'd still be SOMEWHERE. You're always somewhere.

God bless Malachi Favors.

Jim's post reads like some of Coltrane's later stuff. Note the passion, the emotion, the power of unsequestered descriptive prose. The attempt to describe life's meaning with the lmiting language of man's descriptive prowess.

I mean, HELL YEAH, Jim........I think

Just kidding with you man......

[JSngry]

The attempt to describe life's meaning with the lmiting language of man's descriptive prowess.

I mean, HELL YEAH, Jim........I think

Just kidding with you man......

Don't be kidding. That business about "The attempt to describe life's meaning with the lmiting language of man's descriptive prowess" hits the nail on the head. That's the real deal. No matter how much there is, it's never all of it. So what do you do - never be satisfied or give up looking and stand pat?

Or...

How's about digging what we already have to the fullest and humbly yet fearlessly go about looking for more, knowing that the puzzle may well never be solved but that most likely there's a missing piece or two out there with our name on it? Hell, it might have more than one name on it, but it might not fit until everybody claims it.

Aw, fuck it. Let's stay home and watch TV Land. Now THAT'S a party!

[7/4]

Having said that, INTERSTELLAR SPACE is the keeper, the one to have if you're having only one. ff that one never, ever reveals itself to you even slightly, it's not the music's fault.

I approve!

Yes, I know some of you saw that coming....

I've been checking out Ascension lately, after not hearing for 10 years or so. Damm, this is some interesting Elvin.

First Meditations should be first stop after A Love Supreme. Meditations, I'm still absorbing. Man, the melody to Love...

I love the material with Pharoah and Alice. And what is up with Rashid Ali? What time zone is he in ? What is he doing anyways? Check out live in Japan.

EXPRESSIONS, that tune To Be sure is a twisty one (a good thing). Trane and Pharoah on flutes. I wish they had time to record more material like this.

I love this period so I recomend it all and listen to it carefully. And enjoy it too!

[Gary]

Maybe another good CD to try is 'Live at the Village Vanguard Again ' - the later band doing 'My Favourite Things ' I suppose it could be seen as a bridge between the old & new .

[king ubu]

Seems no one has mentioned "Live in Seattle" so far. That's another incredible album! (the CD version has some material not on LP)

I do enjoy that one very much! Gotta listen to all this late Trane stuff again after reading this thread - and after Sangrey's insight-ful and eloquent post (thanks)!

ubu

[MartyJazz]

...........

there is still a rather large percentage of the population who are living under the perception that life is lived in 4/4 time, chromaticism is an often=dangerous luxury rather than a fact of life, harmony should be tertiary and primarily diatonic, and that time and rhythm are inevitable cosmic wholes rather than specific selections from a bottomless pit of potential combinations.

Well, once upon a time, that was the truth, because that was what we knew, pretty much all of us. But damn it, people keep DISCOVERING that, yeah, that's all true and stuff, but it's not the WHOLE truth, and the more shit gets discovered, the harder it is to ignore it. Yet there's a MASSIVE micro- and macro- structure in place that is ENTIRELY based on that once-whole-but-now-partial truth, and those structures aren't going to give up (or at least share) without a helluva fight. That's not necessarily a sign of malevolence (sometimes, anyway), it's just the nature of things, inertia and all that. But they're going to have to make room, because if something is REALLY true, then it can't be destroyed. It MUST find a place, either peacefully or not.

Loved your post, and the part quoted above especially resonated with me. Yet, with all that, I confess that after 40+ years of listening and collecting avidly, and having 80+ Coltrane LPs, including all of the Impulses, etc., I have never been able to get into late (and by late, I mean essentially the group with Alice, Pharoah & Rashied Ali). Life's just too short, to attempt and re-attempt getting into a period of his music that, for me I stress, continues to repulse. And lest I be viewed as just a staunch traditionalist, I occasionally revisit with relish much Ornette, Shepp, Tchicai, Marion Brown, CIRCLE, Sam Rivers.....you get the point.

Perhaps it's the following memory that's still so intense after all these years. I was 20 circa 1966 and I was just getting into Trane at the time, however my only two sides were Star Dust (Prestige) and Coltrane's Sound (Atlantic) and I was playing the shit out of them. I ask and get a date with this 18 year old beauty and take her to the Vanguard where Trane is appearing. Clark Terry's group is the opening act and he plays a wonderful set that features Ellington tunes, standards, etc., but of course I can't wait for the "monster" (as Lee Morgan called him) to appear. Finally, Trane, Pharoah, Alice, Garrison and Ali come on. I'll never forget the look on my date's face during the ensuing chaos. It said without words "I thought you liked me....why are you doing this to me?" Of course, we stayed throughout the set....even then I knew that I couldn't walk out on someone just because I didn't understand what was happening at that moment. But the truth is, I collected and listened attentively thereafter, believing that I would eventually come to appreciate ALL of Trane. Well, it's not the case....simplistically speaking, I don't go past late '64 or thereabouts when it comes to his output

I guess my point is, that for some, it may be a journey but this is one destination you may never get to in terms of appreciation, much less enjoyment. Hell, McCoy himself has admitted that he left because he didn't like where the journey was heading. Regardless, there are many other wonderful and exotic locales that can be very rewarding.

Marty B)

[Morganized]

The attempt to describe  life's meaning with the lmiting language of man's descriptive prowess.

I mean, HELL YEAH, Jim........I think       

Just kidding with you man......

Don't be kidding. That business about "The attempt to describe life's meaning with the lmiting language of man's descriptive prowess" hits the nail on the head. That's the real deal. No matter how much there is, it's never all of it. So what do you do - never be satisfied or give up looking and stand pat?

Or...

How's about digging what we already have to the fullest and humbly yet fearlessly go about looking for more, knowing that the puzzle may well never be solved but that most likely there's a missing piece or two out there with our name on it? Hell, it might have more than one name on it, but it might not fit until everybody claims it.

Aw, fuck it. Let's stay home and watch TV Land. Now THAT'S a party!

Jim,

Surprised by your response. I agree with you. I guess that is the limiting nature of the internet. Thought my post indicated that.

I mean, HELL YEAH, Jim........I think

What I found refreshing and pleasing was the obvious passion of your convictions. Guess kidding was not the right word but no need to take offense. We are probably pretty much on the same page on this.

Hey, you want to watch some TV tonight? This time I am "kidding" you.

Take care man!!