Modern/Avant New Releases: A running thread

[xybert]

On the way to me. Looking forward to it.

Cool, looking forward to hearing your thoughts if you get a chance.

Haven't heard this one, but Matador & The Bull is a motherfucker.

I've ordered Matador & The Bull, really looking forward to hearing it.

[Blue Train]

Like everyone of these kind of ECM releases....all those involved will play completely different than in their normal way of playing when not recording for ECM It's all about the Benjamins.

As in, it might be Tim Berne, et al playing, but it's not really Tim Berne, et al playing.

IIRC Mr Berne posted here when Snake Oil was accused of much the same thing. He vehemently denied as far as I recall being under any pressure from ECM to smooth out his music to fit the label.

He probably made more money and became more well known than all his own releases on his own label (which hasn't released anything for years now), but okay.

He wasn't forced but when you go to ECM you already know what is expected.

As in, Emo Jazz.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Blue Train

[xybert]

Like everyone of these kind of ECM releases....all those involved will play completely different than in their normal way of playing when not recording for ECM It's all about the Benjamins.

As in, it might be Tim Berne, et al playing, but it's not really Tim Berne, et al playing.

IIRC Mr Berne posted here when Snake Oil was accused of much the same thing. He vehemently denied as far as I recall being under any pressure from ECM to smooth out his music to fit the label.

He probably made more money and became more well known than all his own releases on his own label (which hasn't released anything for years now), but okay.

He wasn't forced but when you go to ECM you already know what is expected.

As in, Emo Jazz.

I think that for a lot of listeners when an artist releases an album on ECM it's almost like they are getting a sort of stamp of approval. This might make them reassess an artists earlier work. Right or wrong i don't begrudge Berne any increased exposure or sales that might result from working with ECM.

I really, really do see peoples point with regards to ECM taking the edges of artists (see my previous comment regarding Lloyd/Moran), but i am always slightly uncomfortable with the implication that they are selling out or playing in a style that they themselves don't want to play. Is it so hard to imagine that Berne wanted the Snakeoil album to sound exactly as it sounded?

[Blue Train]

Like everyone of these kind of ECM releases....all those involved will play completely different than in their normal way of playing when not recording for ECM It's all about the Benjamins.

As in, it might be Tim Berne, et al playing, but it's not really Tim Berne, et al playing.

IIRC Mr Berne posted here when Snake Oil was accused of much the same thing. He vehemently denied as far as I recall being under any pressure from ECM to smooth out his music to fit the label.

He probably made more money and became more well known than all his own releases on his own label (which hasn't released anything for years now), but okay.

He wasn't forced but when you go to ECM you already know what is expected.

As in, Emo Jazz.

I think that for a lot of listeners when an artist releases an album on ECM it's almost like they are getting a sort of stamp of approval. This might make them reassess an artists earlier work. Right or wrong i don't begrudge Berne any increased exposure or sales that might result from working with ECM.

I really, really do see peoples point with regards to ECM taking the edges of artists (see my previous comment regarding Lloyd/Moran), but i am always slightly uncomfortable with the implication that they are selling out or playing in a style that they themselves don't want to play. Is it so hard to imagine that Berne wanted the Snakeoil album to sound exactly as it sounded?

Don't get me wrong. I glad him and everyone that goes ECM is able to make money and it hopefully leads people to buying their really them recordings.

Having said that. Would it have sounded exactly as it sounded without ECM being involved? He's been a recording artist for how long now? Like his playing or not.....Berne is one of those that his own "voice/sound" so to speak. If no one told anyone it was Tim Berne involved in anyway....would anyone believe it?

Edited September 1, 2013 by Blue Train

[xybert]

Like everyone of these kind of ECM releases....all those involved will play completely different than in their normal way of playing when not recording for ECM It's all about the Benjamins.

As in, it might be Tim Berne, et al playing, but it's not really Tim Berne, et al playing.

IIRC Mr Berne posted here when Snake Oil was accused of much the same thing. He vehemently denied as far as I recall being under any pressure from ECM to smooth out his music to fit the label.

He probably made more money and became more well known than all his own releases on his own label (which hasn't released anything for years now), but okay.

He wasn't forced but when you go to ECM you already know what is expected.

As in, Emo Jazz.

I think that for a lot of listeners when an artist releases an album on ECM it's almost like they are getting a sort of stamp of approval. This might make them reassess an artists earlier work. Right or wrong i don't begrudge Berne any increased exposure or sales that might result from working with ECM.

I really, really do see peoples point with regards to ECM taking the edges of artists (see my previous comment regarding Lloyd/Moran), but i am always slightly uncomfortable with the implication that they are selling out or playing in a style that they themselves don't want to play. Is it so hard to imagine that Berne wanted the Snakeoil album to sound exactly as it sounded?

Don't get me wrong. I glad him and everyone that goes ECM is able to make money and it hopefully leads people to buying their really them recordings.

Having said that. Would it have sounded exactly as it sounded without ECM being involved? He's been a recording artist for how long now? Like his playing or not.....Berne is one of those that his own "voice/sound" so to speak. If no one told anyone it was Tim Berne involved in anyway....would anyone believe it?

It probably would have sounded different if ECM wasn't involved but that was the way Berne wanted it. Berne's sound has evolved over the years; would someone listening to a Hard Cell album who was only familiar with Fractured Fairytales or The Ancestors think that it sounds like Tim Berne? I know i'm playing devils advocate to a certain extent and i do honestly see where you are coming from.... I guess i just give Berne the benefit of the doubt. One hole in my argument (and i'm surprised Steve Reynolds hasn't chimed in with it yet) is that apparently Snakeoil sounds more traditionally Tim Berne like live. Again, i could still argue that for whatever reason he wanted the recorded document to sound the way it does...

[Steve Reynolds]

Anyone ever hear Michael Formanek live?

For those who haven't, he has a gorgeous resonant sound consistent with the sound of his bass on those great enja releases from the 90's

Tell me - anyone - you hear that sound on either ECM release??

Regarding Xybert's comments:

And I haven't seen Snakeoil live but I do know Ches Smith is a beast live and he is anything but on the ECM recording

Edited September 1, 2013 by Steve Reynolds

[Blue Train]

It probably would have sounded different if ECM wasn't involved but that was the way Berne wanted it. Berne's sound has evolved over the years; would someone listening to a Hard Cell album who was only familiar with Fractured Fairytales or The Ancestors think that it sounds like Tim Berne? I know i'm playing devils advocate to a certain extent and i do honestly see where you are coming from.... I guess i just give Berne the benefit of the doubt. One hole in my argument (and i'm surprised Steve Reynolds hasn't chimed in with it yet) is that apparently Snakeoil sounds more traditionally Tim Berne like live. Again, i could still argue that for whatever reason he wanted the recorded document to sound the way it does...

I really do understand what you mean and have seen the Snakeoil band perform in the UK. As you pointed out, different band/sound completely.

Like I said, I am glad they're able to make money....I really do hope it leads people to the real thing and those involved can make even more money, and become more well known.

Anyone ever hear Michael Formanek live?

For those who haven't, he has a gorgeous resonant sound consistent with the sound of his bass on those great enja releases from the 90's

Tell me - anyone - you hear that sound on either ECM release??

Regarding Xybert's comments:

And I haven't seen Snakeoil live but I do know Ches Smith is a beast live and he is anything but on the ECM recording

Yes and no for both.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Blue Train

[CraigP]

I try to take each recording from an artist on its own merits. I like Bloodcount's Unwound, and I like Snake Oil. To me, Snake Oil is the sound of an artist maturing, not necessarily mellowing, but finding a way of expressing himself that is in some ways richer than what came before.

[jlhoots]

Frankly the ECM bashing is sort of useless.

If you don't like the sound, don't buy the music.

BTW not all music needs to be dissonant, skronky, atonal, roaring, monstrous , screaming, etc. , etc. to be worth listening to IMO.

[Steve Reynolds]

Frankly the ECM bashing is sort of useless.

If you don't like the sound, don't buy the music.

BTW not all music needs to be dissonant, skronky, atonal, roaring, monstrous , screaming, etc. , etc. to be worth listening to IMO.

Nobody said all music needs to be as you said above

The reality is it is NOT bashing

Maybe answering the critique (much different than 'bashing') might provide some insight

[mjazzg]

at the risk of perpetuating a debate I don't want to perpetuate...

Unbelievable! I post a joking reference to the debate about the first Snakeoil album - I wondered how many posts it would be after the mention of TB's new ECM release before the label was criticised - it was the very next post!! I'm almost prepared to think it was a set up and that the post wasn't serious, but it was. Pavlov and his pet mutts couldn't have done it sooner.

I go offline for the night, come back in the morning and guess what...the self same debate that happened on the first release happens again. So I apologise to all for inadvertently starting this hoary old debate. I really enjoy this thread for its discussion of individual releases and hope it stays as advertisd a discussion of the releases, not the labels and their positive/negative influence. So here are a couple of outlets for people's views on ECM and Snakeoil

Last time this happened I set up a thread specifically for discussion about ECM the label and artist's relationships with it. This was so other threads weren't diverted by this seemingly continual discussion. the thread's here, feel free to post to it if you've comments about the label

Also, as highlighted above Tim Berne did indeed join the previous (but same) debate to expalin his relationship with ECM and also the music that was released on it. I think many of you might find it interesting, he posts from #54 onwards

Edited September 2, 2013 by mjazzg

[mjazzg]

and now back to what this thread is all about. Here's an intriguing "soon come" from Leo

CD LR 681 A VIOLENT DOSE OF ANYTHING; Ivo Perelman, Matthew Shipp, Mat Maneri

A Violent Dose of Anything is a soundtrack for the feature film by the Brazilian film director Gustavo Galvao. When Ivo got the offer to provide the music for the film he invited Matthew Shipp and Mat Maneri because he knew the music would be flexible enough for a movie. Although Ivo's music belongs to today, the process utilized by him and Galvao goes back to the early 20th century when movie theatres employed solo pianists and pipe-organ players to improvise a soundtrack to the film on screen.

would appear to be due in September. I'm intrigued by this line-up. Anyone know anything more?

[alankin]

Why release one Perelman albums when you can release two? Also this month from Leo:

CD LR 683 ENIGMA; Ivo Perelman, Matthew Shipp, Whit Dickey, Gerald Cleaver

Tenor saxophonist Ivo Perelman has been issuing albums at a furious rate recently. Over the last three years he recorded no less than 15 new albums. Like John Coltrane, Perelman’s albums are continually questioning the musical orthodoxy and looking for new parts of the musical map to explore. To record "Enigma" he needed to create denser music. That's why apart from his musical blood-brother Matthew Shipp he invites two drummers — Whit Dickeyand Gerald Cleaver. Ivo Perelman boldly goes where no tenor player has gone before.

[7/4]

and now back to what this thread is all about. Here's an intriguing "soon come" from Leo

CD LR 681 A VIOLENT DOSE OF ANYTHING; Ivo Perelman, Matthew Shipp, Mat Maneri

A Violent Dose of Anything is a soundtrack for the feature film by the Brazilian film director Gustavo Galvao. When Ivo got the offer to provide the music for the film he invited Matthew Shipp and Mat Maneri because he knew the music would be flexible enough for a movie. Although Ivo's music belongs to today, the process utilized by him and Galvao goes back to the early 20th century when movie theatres employed solo pianists and pipe-organ players to improvise a soundtrack to the film on screen.

would appear to be due in September. I'm intrigued by this line-up. Anyone know anything more?

I was at this show: Ivo Perelman Quartet @ The Stone 1-30-13

[colinmce]

Leo has put out several Pereleman CDs with Shipp, Cleaver, and Maneri the last couple years. I'd have liked to check them out, but haven't gotten around to it yet.

Also re: Snakeoil: I'm sorry I brought the damn thing up. It's a shame that Tim Berne hasn't done enough for and by himself over the last thirty years to adequately prove to people he's not in it for the money. What a bullshit attitude to have towards someone who's busted his ass for decades making people happy with no financial gain at all. I'll assume you'd lob the same snark in Roscoe Mitchell's direction?

[CraigP]

Re: Perelman: I just don't get it, unfortunately. He records with musicians I admire, like Cleaver and Shipp, but he screeches way too much and he's not a very interesting improviser, IMO. I'm open to other points of view.

[Steve Reynolds]

I am not in the camp that has Berne doing it for the money or that the music itself is in any way compromised.

My only beef is the actual sound.

I want to hear Formanek breath, I want hear the strings, I want to hear the resonance of his gorgeous bass sound.

I want to hear Cleaver's amazing crisp powerful sound. Another example is on Small Places where there is an aggressive passage during the first or second track and the band is smoking but the sound is muffled and subdued.

That's all - nothing else and nothing more from me on this subject for a while

Peace and Blessings

[colinmce]

I didn't mean you, Steve. I get where you're coming from.

[jlhoots]

Halvorson / Knuffke / Wilson: Sifter

[uli]

Halvorson / Knuffke / Wilson: Sifter

there are more clips

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYKgoUSSLPE

[xybert]

Speaking of Knuffke, I was glad to see that Ideal Bread's next album reached it's Kickstarter goal:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/943079273/ideal-breads-beating-the-teens

.

From the website: "Ideal Bread is preparing to record their most ambitious project yet: a 2-CD album entitled Beating the Teens. This will be a document of their year-long efforts to recompose and reimagine Steve Lacy's 3-CD box set Scratching the Seventies."

Looks like this will be coming out on Cuneiform early 2014.

[colinmce]

Wow, I hadn't heard about that! Awesome. Whoever I put on Transmit, I always end up spinning it over and over for a few days.

[Head Man]

Halvorson / Knuffke / Wilson: Sifter

there are more clips

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYKgoUSSLPE

Very nice,...thanks for sharing, Uli.

[Tania Giannouli]

From the press release:

FOREST STORIES is a collection of improvised jewels performed by Greek-born pianist Tania Giannouli and Portuguese wind-player Paulo Chagas. These finely balanced pieces conjure sensual images with a vivid and painterly grace. Impressionistic, atmospheric, at times pastoral then dark and mysterious, FOREST STORIES is consistently harmonious to the ear. Tania and Paulo intuatively understand that great music is created in harmony with silence.

[mjazzg]

New Matana Roberts on the way. Second Chapter of Coin Coin.http://cstrecords.com/cst098/

I am very excited by this as I thought Chapter One was a very powerful work

(with thanks to Uli for postng the news about Ms Roberts being on the cover of latest Wire which sent me off on a search)