NBA 2012 -- 2013

[uli]

What I usually don't like about the Breen/vanGundy duo is that they usually talk about everything but the game they are supposed to comment. Last night they did a better than usual job, imho. Especially they did comment on Wade's fabulous performance. They did commend him for some extraordinay nice passes and for his overall MVP like performance that was much more than just creating opportunities for himself by driving to the basket. They also frequently referred to his stats which iirc ended up to be 32 points (with very effective shooting) 6 rebounds, 4 assists (same as LeBron) 5 or 6 steels and no turnovers.

Didn't mean to suggest that all did was create opportunities for himself. I was just commending him for being the only guy who seemed to be able to easily work the ball to get a GOOD, mid-ranged open jumper for himself. But it was among the many good things he did.

New point: In the first half Tony Parker made a bunch of impossible looking floaters,seemingly while diving for extra yardage at full speed.

Yeah thelil, no I did not misunderstand you. I was more commenting on your comments on the commentators.

You probably already know that in my opinion it's impossible to overrate a good scorer. With evenly matched good teams what's the first thing the defense is trying to take away from you? the easy basket. Which ever way you skin that cat your're better off with an exceptional scorer or two or three. Plus there is so much to scoring that it never it never gets boring. Not to sound like a cheap commercial There really is. I know that I don't have to tell you but, the moves, the speed, the shots, the floaters, the jumpers the the threes..... please don't get me started again , thelil.

Edited June 15, 2013 by uli

[uli]

It's now Miami's championship. Miami showed, after getting blown out in the third game, that they respond with a fierce competitiveness when they need to win. Unfortunately Parker can't play the minutes needed to keep SA competitive with Miami over the course of 3 more games, if needed. And we won't see the Spurs 3 point barrage again with Miami's more aggressive defense.

imo it's far from over. Sure don't hope so. It's exciting. As thelil pointed out. neither team has won their 2 games the same way. As often in a playoff series, the next game is the most important.

Edited June 15, 2013 by uli

[steve(thelil)]

Denying Uli's request to not get him started again I think it's incredibly easy to overrate a scorer- if he doesn't shoot a good percentage and/or stalls the ball movement and/or plays shitty defense.

Player Efficiency Ratings and Plus/Minus stats bear this out.. (eg. .NBA leading scorer Carmelo Anthony is 29th in plus/minus. Kobe Bryant not in the top 50)

And it's even easier because newspaper and media coverage always start with "Despite 32 points by XXXX, the XYZ's lose to the ABCs 90-86." When your boys Kobe and Carmelo shoot 7-24, with 28 points it's rare for the media to point out that their performance just might have hurt their team.

Now, I'm not saying GOOD SHOOTING is overrated. Assuming all other parts of the game (defense, passing, rebounding) being equal, a good shooter is invaluable and is often the difference between winning and losing. (eg, great scorer and ALL AROUND PLAYER Kevin Durant is 2nd in plus/minus, behind Lebron James)

Edited June 15, 2013 by steve(thelil)

[uli]

I think Carmelo is 4th on PER (last regular season)

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistic

29 th on +/i- s in no way an indication of shitty defense. That's still in the best 15%, No?

But enough alredy about Carmelo and Durant. This is the Finals, they are both out . It's all about the rings now.

.

Edited June 15, 2013 by uli

[steve(thelil)]

I think Carmelo is 4th on PER (last regular season)

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics

What stat's are you using?

I gave Carmelo's plus minus. I agree his PER was good. A lot of his negative value ( teammates not scoring well when he's in because the ball doesn't move and the spacing and defense can suffer) shows up in plus/minus but NOT in PER. PER is based on individual stats. Plus/Minus is measures how well the TEAM performs when a player is on the floor.

Here's the stats for plus minus for the TOP 50 plus/minus guys this year. You have to go to page 2 to find Carmelo. You won't find Kobe anywhere in the top 50.

http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=1&season=22012&split=9&team=

Edited June 15, 2013 by steve(thelil)

[uli]

I have edited mine before I saw yours,

But I truly don't want to make this thread a conversation between the two of us.

Maybe we should take it to the alley.

Edited June 15, 2013 by uli

[steve(thelil)]

I have edited mine before I saw yours,

But I truly don't want to make this thread a conversation between the two of us.

Maybe we should take it to the alley.

Yeah. Let's make the people here think we are considerate......Tee hee.......

[Soulstation1]

My picks

Game # 5 Miami

Game # 6 SA

Game # 7 Miami in a blowout

[Bright Moments]

let's hope so SS!

[Soulstation1]

Shit I don't think Miami will win games 6 & 7 vs SA

Still think its going seven games

[uli]

I hope it goes to game 7. Oher than that I am sticking to my banality. The next game is always the most important one,

[TedR]

Shit I don't think Miami will win games 6 & 7 vs SA

Still think its going seven games

I think it'll go 7 games too. Miami is 6-0 after a loss during these playoffs. They always respond well. Game 6 should be the blow out.

[Soulstation1]

I think no team winning 2 in a row plays out

Hope I'm wrong...

Edited June 18, 2013 by Soulstation1

[Soulstation1]

WTF is up with Wade's puffy face?

Is he the Black Godfather?

[Soulstation1]

Damn Spurs up by 10 pts going to the 4th quarter

[ejp626]

Oh, this is not going to sit well with the Spurs. Had they not missed a couple of free throws in the 4th Q, they would be Champs.

And I realize this is heresy, but Pops made some very bad coaching decisions (or rather gambles) down the stretch, mostly pulling Duncan out in favor of smaller guys to guard the perimeter but then the Spurs had no rebounding. Twice they needed absolutely critical stops, and they didn't get them either time. Much more likely to get those stops with Duncan in than out. I have to say, a lot of this rests with the coach.

[TedR]

Ugh. Well I was wrong about the blow out. Now I think losing a close one like this is much more difficult to bounce back from. Miami wins the next one with their legacy on the line. My reason for rooting for the Spurs, besides being the underdog, is I can't forget LeBron's arrogance when, before playing one game with the big three, he promised championships ("not one, not two, not three, not four, not five , not six, not SEVEN....."). Many of their fans even started heading for the exits when it appeared the Heat MAY have lost well before the game was over. And in the finals of all things. I don't know of any other fans that would react that way in the same circumstances. (sorry Bright, just one opinion)

[Aggie87]

I agree that Pop screwed up by not keeping Duncan in for rebounding, and that affected the outcome of the game.

I also think the non-call on Ginobili on the Spurs' final drive was unforgivable. He should have been on the line shooting two (which he likely makes) and giving the Spurs the lead back, and possible clinching the game - who knows? Instead the non-call resulted in a foul the other way and the game for the Heat.

Shame when the refs affect the outcome of the game as much as the players.

What's worse is that is something that you can recover from in Game 1 or 2, but not Game 6 on the opponent's court, with a game in which you clearly played well enough to win.

[ejp626]

I agree that Pop screwed up by not keeping Duncan in for rebounding, and that affected the outcome of the game.

I also think the non-call on Ginobili on the Spurs' final drive was unforgivable. He should have been on the line shooting two (which he likely makes) and giving the Spurs the lead back, and possible clinching the game - who knows? Instead the non-call resulted in a foul the other way and the game for the Heat.

Shame when the refs affect the outcome of the game as much as the players.

What's worse is that is something that you can recover from in Game 1 or 2, but not Game 6 on the opponent's court, with a game in which you clearly played well enough to win.

I didn't watch, but I heard it (non-foul strip) was pretty flagrant. What's particularly unfortunate is that it gives people even more ammunition to claim that the games are rigged. My wife goes on and on about how Stern wants Miami to win it again. Frankly, if she really believes this, I wonder why she bothers to watch, but it is hard to really get inside the head of a committed sports fan.

[Quincy]

What gets me about the Ginobili non-call was you have to call something there. He either was fouled or he traveled. If you don't look at what Allen does with his arm and just look at the steps Ginobili looks like a running back ready to be brought down after a 3 yard gain. I know it's the NBA in the 21st century but c'mon. The no call on Bosh at the end doesn't bug me as the officials haven't been calling borderline fouls much. And although I hate how they didn't call something on Ginobili's drive, at least they haven't been fooled by the flopping as in past series. I do wish they'd start calling fouls for cry-baby face though.

[ejp626]

What gets me about the Ginobili non-call was you have to call something there. He either was fouled or he traveled. If you don't look at what Allen does with his arm and just look at the steps Ginobili looks like a running back ready to be brought down after a 3 yard gain. I know it's the NBA in the 21st century but c'mon. The no call on Bosh at the end doesn't bug me as the officials haven't been calling borderline fouls much. And although I hate how they didn't call something on Ginobili's drive, at least they haven't been fooled by the flopping as in past series. I do wish they'd start calling fouls for cry-baby face though.

I think they are slowly making progress on flops. Hope that continues next season.

But traveling? They might as well change the rules. LeBron routinely gets 2.5 steps as do most of the other stars.

[Bright Moments]

oh please - Ginobili looks like a running back the way he moves with the ball. James is fouled on virtually every drive to the basket - no calls. and dont get me started on Duncan - he smashes miller in the face - no call.

Bottom line - the calls go both ways - stop yer whining.

As for the heat fans who left early - when they tried to get back into the Arena they were not let in! Too bad - so sad! For the most part the heat have a strong fan base - more so than the Marlins or the Dolphins!

Go Heat!!!

[steve(thelil)]

It seems to me flopping is hard to deal with, for several reasons:

1) You're only going to be called for it if it's so obvious. But if it's SO obvious,it shouldn't fake out a ref and shouldn't be a problem as far as affecting a game.

2) A lot of times when someone alleges flopping it's because a big strong guy falls when he isn't hit that hard. OK, but tell me, why should a defensive player put effort into staying upright when he thinks he's drawing a charge? In other words, I think a guy is actually knocked down by impact rather than falling, but only because he DIDN'T try to keep his balance - but didn't try to fall either
3) Some fans claim to hate flopping, but it seems to me that they hate it when a team or player they dislike ANYWAY does it, but nobody notices it when someone on the team they root for does it.

4) Players in every sport engage in "acting" all the time to get a call. Why is flopping any worse than the other kinds of acting players do to get a call?

[uli]

Nothing gets a sports discussion started like refereeing.

For me flopping is worse than other "acting" because it looks so much more ridiculous.

For instance, if you do a google search "LeBron flops" and look at the results you may get what I mean. I would not go as far as to say that LeBron is the King of flopping. There are many others who do it more often and some even do the "acting" better. All I can say is it looks ridiculous.

For those of you who don't know me yet, I don't dislike LeBron. I wouldn't for example hold that "Not 1, not 2 not...."statement against him. For me that's just some silly stuff that athletes are allowed to say in a celebration.

For thelil, I think there is a difference between not disliking somebody and unconditional love.

Looking forward to game 7.

Edited June 19, 2013 by uli

[Aggie87]

Lebron sits there and whines and flails his arms when he doesn't get a foul call. The other players have all run back down to the other end of the court and LBJ is still there jumping up and down and crying foul. Nobody does this as often as Lebron, in this year's playoffs anyway.

I think part of why Ginobili traveled was because there was so much congestion and arms on him. Yes he traveled, but I think it was because he was being fouled at the time, so to me that's the correct call. Need to see more replay.

Bosh also fouled on the last 3 point attempt by hitting Green's body before the shot, but the block itself appeared to be clean.

However, Pop is still at least partly to blame for having Duncan on the sideline, when he could have been fighting for the rebound that Bosh got and kicked out to Ray Allen.

Otherwise, despite poor play from Parker & Manu, poor foul shooting, poor officiating at the end, and a poor decision by Pop re:Duncan, the Spurs outplayed the Heat and shoulda won.

On to Game 7!