Jazzplus

[JSngry]

The problems with Bird's "Lover Man" would likely not be noticed if the story wasn't already known. Not so much the rest of that session, but that one tune is quite cohesive, and that seems to be the one that everybody obsesses on (even Bird, who I guess felt the need for a do-over).

And Ernie Henry was slinky in the extreme, not sloppy or whatever, which not everybody gets. But everybody don't get something.

I'm pretty sure that at least a few Freddy McCoy Prestige sides have been out in Japan. And at least one of them is coming back! http://www.dustygroo...p%3Bincl_cs%3D1

Never seen or heard of any of 'em on CD. I guess I'll spring for 'Spider man'. Thanks Jim.

MG

I guess that was the only one, but this is the second time it's been out on Japanese CD. I've got "CDs" of some of the others, but...

[mjzee]

Just wanted to take a minute to reflect on the miracle that the CD age was for us. The music that came back into print/availability is stuff that I never would have dreamed I would get to hear and own. While I have my own list of Mosaics I have always wanted to see (Bobby Hutcherson/Harold Land, Chico Hamilton/Charles Lloyd are the two that immediately come to mind), I'm thankful for what they and many other labels have put out for us. And the labels I'm thankful for include some that regularly take knocks, like Collectables. They put out a lot of Atlantic jazz (and a lot of non-jazz) that I may not have ever been able to come by otherwise. The most amazing to me was Fantasy in their heyday, putting out OJC-LE's of people I had never even heard of (John Dennis, for example), and others who I thought their music was gone forever (Prince Lasha and Jimmy Woods, for example). And that's even without starting another firestorm about our Andorran friends. Human nature being what it is, the CD I think most about is whatever happens to be the next one I want to get, but I never could have imagined I would be able to own what I have, let alone even more. And God bless Norah Jones's breakthrough album for bankrolling Blue Note to be able to re-release 90% of their classic catalog, in those many flavors (McMaster, Conn, RVG, Rare Grooves, etc).

[sidewinder]

Yep. After about six years prior of -getting selected LP re-issues from BN and Pathe Marconi etc., and whatever rare original pressing lucky finds I came across in the used bins, and contemporary releases on Black Saint etc., it pretty much started for me around the time of the Mosaic Grant Green and Larry Young box sets. Then came (almost simultaneously the Japanese cd re-issues, and then a steady stream of almost everything I had ever hoped to hear. A glorious time of discovery for those of us who weren't there the first time around.

And not to forget how damned expensive, relatively speaking - some of those reissue LPs were back 25-30 or so years ago. The CD era has definitely been a big plus in that respect. When it all started to kick in for me was around the time that Fantasy brought out the Rollins, Mingus, Monk, Dolphy and Joe Henderson boxes. Only too bad that I didn't latch on to Mosaic until later on.

Edited October 28, 2012 by sidewinder

[Big Beat Steve]

And not to forget how damned expensive, relatively speaking - some of those reissue LPs were back 25-30 or so years ago. The CD era has definitely been a big plus in that respect.

Once the reissue folks started to really fill their CDs up to near the 80min max. playing time -, yes, price really got interesting. Before that ... not so sure. And in the relatively early CD times I often noticed that those CDs that limited themselves to a skimpy 12-13 tracks (each of which wasn't that long either) were decidedly more expensive than the corresponding vinyl. And this went on for a LONG time.

But a definite advantage was that during the CD era they finally started to reissue stuff that had never before been available ever since the orignal 45s or 78s (or LPs) had been released. There really was and is an upsurge in availability. Public domain laws no doubt helped a lot there too ...

OTOH ... considering the initial pressing costs of CDs vs vinyls, many of those CDs aren't THAT cheap after all. But I guess you can't have'em all.

[A Lark Ascending]

You couldn't even get large tranches of the Miles Davis or John Coltrane catalogue in the UK (outside of specialised importers) until the CD era. Blue Notes came and went in small batches. And it was a good few years into it - the 90s - before record companies decided there was a market for reissuing more obscure recordings (and then reissuing them again properly remastered or boutique remastered in various 'bits', with some famous producer name-checked).

The logical thing now would be just to do the remastering job, put them up as downloads and leave them there. Job done. I know it will never please collectors who like their physical copies with notes etc, but if you want to hear the music badly enough...

But that's not how marketing works - withhold to create a demand and then release is part of the game. Though that has been scuppered to a degree by the releasing policy of Fresh Sounds et al. and the pirating sites.

[sidewinder]

You couldn't even get large tranches of the Miles Davis or John Coltrane catalogue in the UK (outside of specialised importers) until the CD era.

That is true. Most of the Miles Davis CBS LPs I have from back then were Italian imports - not cheap either ! Other than that it was mainly 2LP reissue compilations in the UK. As for Coltrane - other than the mid-70s Impulse reissue series here in the UK with 'Africa Brass' and 'Coltrane', the Impulses were tricky to get and most of my LPs ('Sun Ship' for example) were acquired at Zweitausendeins vinyl store in Munich !

Edited October 28, 2012 by sidewinder

[A Lark Ascending]

You couldn't even get large tranches of the Miles Davis or John Coltrane catalogue in the UK (outside of specialised importers) until the CD era.

That is true. Most of the Miles Davis CBS LPs I have from back then were Italian imports - not cheap either ! Other than that it was mainly 2LP reissue compilations in the UK. As for Coltrane - other than the mid-70s Impulse reissue series here in the UK with 'Africa Brass' and 'Coltrane', the Impulses were tricky to get and most of my LPs ('Sun Ship' for example) were acquired at Zweitausendeins vinyl store in Munich !

I ordered 'A Love Supreme' and 'Africa Brass' from my local record shop in Mansfield in early 1978 and it took nearly a month for them to come through. Thick cardboard sleeves, chunky vinyl.

On the other hand, that might have just been Mansfield - getting things through Sherwood Forest avoiding the footpads was something of a struggle back then.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

You couldn't even get large tranches of the Miles Davis or John Coltrane catalogue in the UK (outside of specialised importers) until the CD era.

That is true. Most of the Miles Davis CBS LPs I have from back then were Italian imports - not cheap either ! Other than that it was mainly 2LP reissue compilations in the UK. As for Coltrane - other than the mid-70s Impulse reissue series here in the UK with 'Africa Brass' and 'Coltrane', the Impulses were tricky to get and most of my LPs ('Sun Ship' for example) were acquired at Zweitausendeins vinyl store in Munich !

I don’t know about a jazz release dearth in the late seventies/eighties – at least, not one that I felt. OK, I know I already had most of the soul jazz BN had issued from quite some time earlier. And the new soul jazz releases were OK at best – ‘Go for what you know’, ‘Straight ahead’, ‘Life flight’ – or pretty dull – ‘Wonderland’, ‘Togethering’.

And at the same time, Muse and Milestone were issuing wonderful new albums by such giants as Willis Jackson, Houston Person, Jimmy Ponder, Charles Earland, Hank Crawford, Jimmy McGriff, Shirley Scott, Johnny Lytle, Jack McDuff and Groove Holmes. Smaller labels were issuing new interesting stuff, too, by people like David Newman, Clifford Scott and Nat Adderley. And Savoy, Malaco and Atlanta International were issuing loads of great new gospel music.

For reissues, Fantasy’s OJC LPs (and reissues here on Ace) were fine; I caught up on some Sonny Criss, who I never appreciated until he recorded for Muse. They even put out some OJCs described as Original Soul Classics, including Harold Mabern’s ‘Rakin’ and scrapin’’, which I’d missed. And I was able to get nice copies of albums that you only saw as trashed by people like Jimmy Forrest, Gene Ammons, and Arnett Cobb.

So there was plenty of prime stuff for me to buy, as well as music from Senegal, Guinea and Mali, which I was just getting into. Who cared about those mouldy old Blue Note hard bop albums? Not me

Yeah, the late seventies/eighties/early nineties were a great time for collecting music.

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Oh, and let's not forget JAM. Lots of good stuff came out in the eighties on JAM. McGriff, McCann, Arnold Sterling, McDuff, Red Holloway, Upchurch. And Gene Harris, whose albums I overlooked.

MG

[Big Beat Steve]

Yeah, the late seventies/eighties/early nineties were a great time for collecting music.

100% agreement. I really cannot complain about the vinyl selection in jazz and related collectible music we had here available locally (though I was far removed from London where there was even far more on the shelves as I was able to see during my stqys there in 1975 to 77). After I started listening to jazz, blues etc. and buying LPs (which fast turned into collecting) in 1975 there was constantly much, much more of interest to me than I could ever hope to be able to buy. We had 4 or 5 shops locally that constantly stocked nice items, including lots of imports, even U.S. ones (and who cared if they were cutouts - these were not inferior pressings, after all, just items that had been written off elsewhere and recycled in the sales channels here). And they had dedicated staff that constantly saw to it that even obscure "collectors only" items were stocked - for jazz, roots music (blues, Western Swing, etc.), rockabilly, you name it. Not just German licenses/pressings, UK, French and US runs too. OK, some of the imports were pricy, but there were always enough good deals around too. And current labels (MPS, Enja, etc.) were common sights too.

So I really can't complain about the range available, and my only regret is that a good deal of those times (c. 1980 to 1985) fell into a period when my buying funds were tight and I missed out on a lot.

The major advantage of the CD era was/is that reissuers soon went (and still go) well beyond what had been covered in the LP era and where one had little hope that they would ever go much further (unless one happened upon Japanese reissues).

Edited October 28, 2012 by Big Beat Steve

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

So I really can't complain about the range available, and my only regret is that a good deal of those times (c. 1980 to 1985) fell into a period when my buying funds were tight and I missed out on a lot.

Yes, funds were always a problem. But I was promoted in '79, so the stringent measures of the earlier period could be lifted.

The major advantage of the CD era was/is that reissuers soon went (and still go) well beyond what had been covered in the LP era and where one had little hope that they would ever go much further (unless one happened upon Japanese reissues).

It was the bonus tracks that really converted me to CD; particularly Grant Green material on BN. In the mid eighties, my wife was on at me to get a CD player because, she said, everything was out on CD. I laughed. I'm still laughing; perhaps half my collection has come out on CD. Very little gospel music from the 60s to the early 90s has issued on CD. Almost no west African recordings, though the position is improving a bit now, nearly 30 years later.

MG

[A Lark Ascending]

I've never known it better than it is now. If you are not restricted to particular formats, you can get far more legally than I ever remember.

Some of it you can get in a few minutes without leaving the house. I know leaving the house to go a-hunting was a vital part of the pleasure for some, and I loved it at the time. But there's no way I'd want to go back. I listen to more music now than I did back in the days when a great chunk of Saturday vanished into driving to a city with record shops - at lest 30-45 minutes away - and then wandering around the shops.

I actually can't do the record shop thing now - I suspect because the chances of finding anything attractive are so slim that I can't be bothered looking. I was in Cambridge last Monday and managed about 3 minutes in Fopp. A bit longer in the dedicated classical shop (Heffers) but even there everything could be bought more cheaply via download. I still like book shops, though.

Edited October 28, 2012 by A Lark Ascending

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I've never known it better than it is now. If you are not restricted to particular formats, you can get far more legally than I ever remember.

Some of it you can get in a few minutes without leaving the house. I know leaving the house to go a-hunting was a vital part of the pleasure for some, and I loved it at the time. But there's no way I'd want to go back. I listen to more music now than I did back in the days when a great chunk of Saturday vanished into driving to a city with record shops - at lest 30-45 minutes away - and then wandering around the shops.

I actually can't do the record shop thing now - I suspect because the chances of finding anything attractive are so slim that I can't be bothered looking. I was in Cambridge last Monday and managed about 3 minutes in Fopp. A bit longer in the dedicated classical shop (Heffers) but even there everything could be bought more cheaply via download. I still like book shops, though.

I bet there's a decent 2nd hand vinyl shop in Cambridge. The shop in Cardiff has been there since the sixties, I think, but it's a rare visit when I don't find something interesting. Because it's an hour and a half each way by bus, I only go about once every month or 6 weeks, when I need to buy more muesli from Wally's deli, and I usually manage a look through Kelly's and the 2nd hand bookshop. There's a lot of pleasure in just looking, of course, which you can't really do on the web.

MG

[crisp]

I've found some more titles in this series at Amazon.de:

Gene Ammons: The Soulful Moods Of Gene Ammons / Nice An' Cool

Charlie Byrd: Latin Impressions / Bossa Nova Pelos Passaros

Johnny Hammond Smith: Black Coffee / Mr. Wonderful

Clark Terry: Everything's Mellow / Plays The Jazz Version Of All American

Bobby Timmons: Sweet And Soulful Sounds / Born To Be Blue

So they are including Riverside and Moodsville titles among the Verve and Mercury ones. No sign of them in the shops in Paris or London yet.

Edited December 1, 2012 by crisp

[Swinging Swede]

I'm pretty sure that at least a few Freddy McCoy Prestige sides have been out in Japan. And at least one of them is coming back! http://www.dustygroo...p%3Bincl_cs%3D1

Never seen or heard of any of 'em on CD. I guess I'll spring for 'Spider man'. Thanks Jim.

I guess that was the only one, but this is the second time it's been out on Japanese CD. I've got "CDs" of some of the others, but...

Yes, Spider Man is still the only one of Freddie McCoy's seven Prestige albums that has come out on CD, which is a bit strange. But with the deluge of Warner and Blue Note titles now coming out on CD for the first time in Japan, perhaps we can hope for something similar for the remaining Prestige titles?

[Quasimado]

Don't doubt you for a second. It's the dubious or rubbishy Basies I want.

"Bad" or "rubbishy" is a highly subjective criterion anyway. By strict criteria of artistry and musicianship Bird's Lover Man session falls far, far short IMO, but knowing the context, would we consider it poor? It's a unique document in the artistic biography of the man. Or take Ernie Henry's LPs that strictly speaking are not exactly supreme masterpieces of musicianship either (listening to them, for once I'd believe contemporary reviewers who point out poor Ernie wasn't even nearly able to put into notes what he heard in his mind) yet they are acknolwedged by many today who evidently have other criteria.

To each his own ...

Ernie Henry

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOvImkQ_44k

Q

[colinmce]

There have indeed been a rash of late-60s/early 70s Prestige & Milestone titles trickling out of Japan. The only McCoy I recall seeing, however, is Spider Man.

[Kyo]

I got both of the Gene Ammons twofers from this series. Content-wise they are straight reissues of previous Fantasy two-fers (Gentle Jug and Soul Summit), both of which I didn't have yet. Got them for 5 Euro (amazon.de has a "3 for 5" sale going, the regular price would be 6,97). I like the way they repackaged these albums - you get the original cover art for both albums on the front and the back of the booklet, a facsimile of the original LP liner notes plus another page with discographical info (and the same again for the second album in the collection). No new liner notes, but that's OK with me as long as we get such a complete package otherwise.

Probably gonna get the Bobby Timmons set next. I see there are two more tracks from the Sweet and Soulful Sounds session not included, but then it seems they weren't on any previous CD editions, either.

Pity about the Coleman Hawkins set omitting the bonus tracks from the previous CD editions, though.

[gmonahan]

This causes me to ponder again what a pity it was that the whole big box reissue boom ended before Prestige did a proper Gene Ammons box.

gregmo

[crisp]

Kyo, does Amazon.de send these as sealed CDs? And can you post a link to the 3 for 5 sale please?

Cheers

[king ubu]

They will most likely not be sealed - Universal CDs are most often not sealed over here (at least the Impuse 2-on-1 weren't, if I'm right ... and those jewel-case-packed "Verve Originals" weren't either, I think).

Link:

http://www.amazon.de/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?__mk_de_DE=%C5M%C5Z%D5%D1&url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=jazzplus

I had a look at the booklet of the Hammond Smith (not sealed!) at a store today and indeed they do look rather nice.

I've ordered a bunch in that 3 for 15€ sales but am still waiting for them to be delivered. The Hawkins really should have been made a 2CD set as the bonus material there is, in my humble opinion, rather substantial, and goes far beyond just another take thrown in length-wise, too.

[crisp]

Thanks Ubu -- and for indulging me in my extreme fussiness.

France seems to be the only EU country in which Uni releases are sealed. I'll probably pick them up when I'm next in Paris.

[king ubu]

Got mine today, all unsealed as expected.

French might seal them 'cos they're cheese-eating surrender-monkeys, remember?

[Kyo]

Kyo, does Amazon.de send these as sealed CDs? And can you post a link to the 3 for 5 sale please?

Cheers

I honestly don't remember if they were sealed, but I'll let you know once the Bobby Timmons disc arrives.

You can use this link to search for all CDs that are part of the sale (it's huge):

http://www.amazon.de/b/ref=ms_sbrspot_14?_encoding=UTF8&ie=UTF8&node=1736008031&plgroup=1&pf_rd_p=363693987&pf_rd_s=center-sign-in&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_i=872398

[crisp]

Thanks guys.