Organ players, playing PIANO (or maybe Fender)...

[Rooster_Ties]

How about a general discussion about organists (here and elsewhere) and their opinions (good and bad) towards playing piano, and maybe their approach to piano??? (Even if that approach is very reluctant, at best.)

I know I've read somewhere around here - maybe from b3-er? (or maybe not) - that some organists (himself included?) really dislike playing piano. That's fair. There are plenty of pianists who dislike playing organ, for all kinds of reasons -- so it stands to reason that the reverse would be true (for all kinds of equally valid reasons).

And for the organists on this board who dislike piano, does that dislike extend equally to Fender playing?? And if so, why?? Or if not, why??

Also, is there any significant discussion to be had about recordings by organists, playing piano (or Fender)??

I was just listening to Woody Shaw's very first album (his demo for BN with Joe Henderson, that later came out on Muse), along with the Nathan Davis album with Woody from about the same year. Both feature Larry Young on piano. I'm not sure if I know enough to pick out anything particularly interesting to say about Larry's piano-playing, relative to his organ-playing -- but maybe some others here (with better ears than I have) can make some comparisons (significant similarities, or differences).

Did any other organists ever record on piano, other than a very few sessions very, very early in their careers?? Those sides with Larry Young are all from the early to mid-60's, and are from the same time-period as several of his pre-BN days - so they are contemporaneous with some of his organ recordings.

Did John Patton ever record on piano?? Jimmy Smith?? Any of the non-BN organists?? I’m guessing probably not (though Jimmy Smith might have, VERY early on – like in the very early 50’s maybe).

I guess, then, are there any semi-important piano (or maybe also Fender) recordings by guys who were organists 90+% of the time, otherwise???

And another question for b3-er (and the other organists here too). If you had an offer to play a regular piano gig with decent money (respectable bread, but nothing any better or worse that you usually get otherwise), how much would you be willing to take such a gig?? Assume you’re playing with decent players in a standard piano-trio, or maybe a quartet, with one horn. (Assume also that it doesn't cut into your other gigs, so it’s not taking away from time you could be gigging on organ.)

Edited January 30, 2004 by Rooster_Ties

[Jim Alfredson]

My problem isn't that I dislike playing piano it's that I can't play piano! I sound like an amatuer. It's really a different instrument. It has a totally different feel (much heavier action), a totally different way to play it (the position of your hands) and a totally different history and expectations of playing than the organ.

I've never considered myself to be, for one instant, a pianist. I consider myself an organist because I've spent the last 8 years dedicated to the instrument. If I spent that on piano then I might be somewhere with it.

I have done jazz gigs on "piano" (meaning a synthesized piano/keyboard) and I hated them. I didn't know what to play. I actually prefer electric piano much more. I can't really explain why... maybe I'm just intimidated by the acoustic piano. I love Fender Rhodes, I love Wurlizter electric pianos and I love acoustic piano but my preference, if I couldn't play organ, would be electric over acoustic from a playing perspective, not necessarily my own listening perspective.

Jimmy Smith has been recorded on piano here and there. The latest example I can think of is a record from the 80s on Elektra called "Keep on Comin'" that has one track of Jimmy playing solo piano. He sounds good.

Larry Young's piano playing on the Cassadranite/Woody Shaw record sounds a little... I don't know... weak to me. Not from a musical standpoint, but from a technique standpoint. It physically takes a lot more hand strength to play piano than it does organ and it sounds like he's not quite there to me. But that might just be me.

And finally, to answer your last question, I don't think I would take a piano gig at this point. I just wouldn't feel comfortable playing and I feel like I would be a disservice to the music. It would be, frankly, embarassing. I am just not a pianist in any sense of the word. I can fake it here and there for my R&B band but that's the extent of it.

I consider myself like Groove Holmes. Groove was not one of those cats that started on piano and switched over. He was an organist from day one. There's nothing wrong with switching and maybe someday I'll take the time to get to know the piano better, but right now I have enough to learn with the organ to keep me busy for quite some time!

[randyhersom]

Shirley Scott has recorded on piano. I was playing an album of hers at work, and a co-worker heard the piano track, liked it and had to know who was playing.

[Jim R]

Jimmy Smith played piano on the track "cha cha j" at the July 4, 1957 Blue Note session with Lou D on some tracks (released in Japan as L.D. +3). Was that the first time for him?

[CJ Shearn]

Jim R, though I haven't heard it I think "Cha Cha J" was Jimmy's first released tune on a piano, I think he attempted cuts on piano for the "Cherokee" session that were rejected.

[Soulstation1]

patton plays the piano on "cowbell boogie" on the the lost sessions conn

fred jackson, patton, green n dixon

ss1

[JohnS]

Larry Goldings, bet known as an organist has several piano recordings out. Just played Tom Browne's "Another Shade Of Brown"with Goldings at the piano a few minutes ago.

[Noj]

I love the moments on Brother Jack McDuff's MOON RAPPIN' where he plays piano.

[mikeweil]

Jack McDuff plays more piano on a track or two on the Cadet double LP "The Heatin' System". Nice and bluesy.

Melvin Rhyne played piano on a track or two of two rather obscure CDs:

Mark Ladley Trio, "Evidence" (Altenburgh Records, 1993)

Jimmy Coe Big Band : "Say What?!" (Time Records, rec. 1987, CD available from Jazz Record Mart).

Rhyne plays pretty strong piano, he started out on piano, but without the subtlety we expect from good pianists or know from his organ playing.

Edited February 5, 2004 by mikeweil

[mikeweil]

The talk about the different action of the two instruments reminds me that I read about several baroque harpsichord players refusing to play organ as they were afraid to ruin their delicate touch on the harpsichord - most organs back then had very heavy action, in German language organists were called "Orgelschläger", organ hitters!

[Jim Alfredson]

most organs back then had very heavy action, in German language organists were called "Orgelschläger", organ hitters!

Now there's a name for a record!!!

[chuckyd4]

Jimmy Smith played piano on the track "cha cha j" at the July 4, 1957 Blue Note session with Lou D on some tracks (released in Japan as L.D. +3). Was that the first time for him?

It might have been his first appearance on wax playing piano, but he definitely started out playing it before he switched over to organ.

There is a semi-interesting release on Empire Musicwerks that features a lot of his first sides on organ, and the liner notes talk a little bit about his switch from one to the other. He really hasn't quite figured out what to do with the instrument, from the sound of things, though... Amazing how quickly that would change..

[JSngry]

Doug Carn's the pianist on the new Curtis Fuller album.

[Soul Stream]

Like Jim mentioned....

Jimmy Smith, Shirley Scott, Patton, Mcduff, McGriff, Leon Spencer Jr., Larry Goldings, Sam Yahel, Mike LeDonne, ect...those guys were all piano players FIRST, before they picked up the organ. So for them to play is no big deal really.

However, to a guy like Jim or Groove Holmes or myself....playing piano is just ridiculous. We've never learned to chord much with the left hand, much less comp rhythmically,...we play full chords w/our right hand...it's just COMPLETELY different. And we sound horrible on piano. Adam Scone, although he played a piano originally, said he doesn't even feel comfortable on that instrument anymore. We are organists...it's just different...

[Jazz Kat]

Jimmy Smith started on piano, but switched to organ because of the bad pianos he found on gigs. Sadly in his later years it would be the same situation with organs.

But I agree the organ and piano are completely different. I think you really gotta work the piano, to make it swing. Organs just seem to swing by themselves, (soundwise.)

[Jim Alfredson]

I remember this thread! Actually, I recently got a piano for free, so I've been farting around with it. My wife keeps saying, "What are you talking about, you can't play piano?! You sound great!" She's too kind.

But my main focus is still organ.

[Big Wheel]

The Turbanator plays piano on the Eric Allison album "After Hours."

Jim, how'd you end up with a free piano?

[Jim Alfredson]

A guy who used to be the bouncer at a local bar we play had to move and didn't have room for it anymore. It's a nice 20's Chickering. My dad is a piano technician/tuner as well, so I get free tunings!

[Big Wheel]

That's funny, my first piano was a Chickering of roughly that age that my family got for free--sort of. The guy who owned the local music shop owed my grandparents' clothing store some money, and gave them the piano as payment instead.

[Jazz Kat]

Oh man do I need my piano tuned! I got it from a school here in the city, sadly it's in bad shape and has "bite me" "f you!" in pen all over it.

[Soul Stream]

A guy who used to be the bouncer at a local bar we play had to move and didn't have room for it anymore.  It's a nice 20's Chickering.  My dad is a piano technician/tuner as well, so I get free tunings!

Yeah, my wife tells me the same thing when I goof on a piano. Love conquers all

Edited March 29, 2005 by Soul Stream

[Jazz Kat]

The Keeper (lost in space-1965) on love:

"I do not suffer from that weekness."

[Jim Alfredson]

I recently got a copy of Steinberg's The Grand for my Cubase workstation and it is real nice. I'm using an old synth as a MIDI controller and I'm actually more comfortable playing piano parts on a synth action than I am on a real piano or a simulated piano-type action!

[jazzmessenger]

I saw Melvin Rhyne quite often in past three years, but have never seen him play organ. He always plays piano or some other keyboards. I wish he would play organ in live shows... The ower of local jazz club told me that Melvin is amazing on organ.

[Jazz Kat]

pianist uses an organ on this lp here, her name:pat moran