Adapting Brasilian rhythms

[fasstrack]

I wonder if any other full-time players are struggling w/this. I am, but it's getting better at least (; Everyone loves Brasilian music-I realize this covers a LOT of ground, so I'll limit comments to bossa/samba from the '50s on. It's not a native culture (meaning the pulse) is the primary thing, and can be daunting. On the other hand one reason Wes Montgomery excelled at 8ves and block chords is b/c no one said he couldn't (; Everything should be approached confidently or why bother? Yet I've seen jazzers I otherwise respect not get it-including some great drummers. I don't want to be like that, but also realize that to really get to the Yoruba/African roots of the thing is a very serious study. So I know going in if I play, Corcovado,-as I do as a solo guitarist- you ain't getting Jaio Gilberto, and let's not even get into Toninho Horta-off the hook. People think it sounds good, but I disagree in that they're hearing a melodic interpretation and sound that's more tried and true w/ASB and jazz. I feel though that the minute I deviate from that steady pulse and play single string melodic solos the bottom drops out (this is a problem in solo playing anyway-it's harder for people to hear things that don't clearly indicate the harmony and time, so best keep it simple and swinging unless purposely ritarding. So I decided the most humble, least neurotic solution, for me at least, is to be myself and play the way I do, take the elements I can use convincingly and ask Brasilian musicians I know, like a great drummer originally from Rio, Vanderlei Perreira, 'Hey, how is THIS supposed to go? ' Can anyone relate?

Edited October 3, 2012 by fasstrack

[fasstrack]

Maybe the way I put it was confusing. Maybe instead of asking if people are struggling with it I should ask if anyone successfully adapted from an American to Brasilian feel, or what their general take on playing that music is? That's what I'm trying to find out. Sorry if I was unclear.

[fasstrack]

Maybe the way I put it was confusing. Maybe instead of asking if people are struggling with it I should ask if anyone successfully adapted from an American to Brasilian feel, or what their general take on playing that music is? That's what I'm trying to find out. Sorry if I was unclear.

Maybe this was a bad idea...

[JSngry]

Are there any Brazilian cats in New York you can hang out with, just to get a feel for the speech patterns and such?

Call me crazy, but I think that speech patterns and musical phrasing are sorta/kinda the same thing, at the least, related, in a lot of musics.

But I'd imagine it's like any other music, you don't get a feel for the music by getting to know the music, you get a feel for the music by getting to know the people. Then the music doesn't need to be figured out, it starts making sense by itself.

[fasstrack]

It's so funny you mention speech patterns. That drummer I mentioned, Vanderlei: We've known each other at least 25 years, and did a string of gigs in the last 4. He's an authority IMO, not just on bossa/samba but the whole panoply of Afro-based rhythm, plus a totally original jazz drummer. He came up w/rhythms I never knew existed at reheasal. It was 'whoa-stop right there! What's THAT called?' Anyway, I ran into him on the street and he took a cell call in Portugese. I stood there amazed at the beauty of the language the same way as when Elis Regina sings. The pull of that culture is just very strong. It's not my major work focus. The ASB w/jazz interpretation will always be that. But the melodies are so beautiful and the rhythm so relaxed I just have to keep at it. Like anything else you hang out, practice w/records, learn the tunes, go to jams, be humble, show you're serious. Cats will give you the world if you're real and love their music.

Edited October 4, 2012 by fasstrack

[seeline]

This might sound a bit beside the point, but .... there are now a fair number of Brazilian TV shows that center on live music available on YT. So far, I've mostly come across shows focused on samba, but there are others - even some that dig deep into folkloric music that has very deep African roots.

I don't have names or URLS handy right now, but you can probably turn up some good material just by browsing around over there... the thing is, the more you immerse yourself in the music (and language), the more you'll "get" - by osmosis if nothing else.

Of course, there's no substitute for hanging out with people who make music - and in NYC, it shouldn't be that hard for you to find at least a few bars where there are samba jams (rodas de sambas) and whatnot, though maybe those will be happening in Brooklyn, Queens (etc.) and not necessarily in Manhattan. It seems to me that in Brazil (and other Latin American countries), music is more a part of daily life than here - and there are many, many talented musicians who've never played in "professional" groups. Meeting some of them could be a game-changer for you.

Edited October 6, 2012 by seeline

[fasstrack]

I think you make a very good point about music being a big part of life there, and 'everyday people' playing music well. The sad truth is that they're way ahead of us there-like so many other cultures are. Art is pretty off the radar in US public schools, and w/machines and gadgets confusing young people as to what music is... All i can say is I myself have played publicly for many years, and these days often in that everyday way you allude to-and it's way harder to get through to people nowadays. They have their minds on everything BUT music. But we go on w/our work, and have to believe that things will cycle back. Back to the topic, I think I'm just going to try to get together w/musicians I meet and play. Gigs are the best, b/c people are in a good mood when they're working. There's a Brazilian jazz scene too, a great place to cross-pollenate. I met this pianist, Helio Alvez on a gig w/Tommy Campbell-by accident, since I went w/ other businesss. Tommy's group was a bitch, so was Helio. That's how to go

[seeline]

I think Latin American societies are very different than ours - and not just because of the amount of poverty, etc.

Music simply is more integrated into daily life... it's nothing to do with gadgets. Playing an instrument well is very important and I've seen plenty of S. American immigrant parents who were extremely gung-ho about having their kids take music lessons - even people who really couldn't afford it.

About samba, etc.: I think you will find that all the Brazilian jazz musicians (here and there) have pretty deep roots in their own popular and folkloric music. That's why I made the suggestion per getting into samba, etc. - that's where you'll get the feeling for the music, I'm thinking.

I could make similar comparisons with people like alto saxophonist Miguel Zenon, who writes and plays a lot of pieces that are based in Puerto Rican folkloric music. It really helps to hear what he's drawing on.

[JSngry]

"Machines and gadgets" got nothing to do with anything. They're just tools, means to an end. If you got nothing to put in, that's what will come out - nothing.

OTOH:

Different in the morning, yet by the end of the day, still the same.

[fasstrack]

What I meant by the gadgets comment-and-please-I don't wand to get into a big side discussion: there's a pervasive self-absorption w/all these mobile devices that makes communicating w/people w/those damn buds in, even to ask directions on the street let alone get them out of their reverie or to slow down long enough to hear music on the street-what I do these days-let's say it's a challenge. And, yeah, there are some great things about the cyber age, but I worry that kids will grow up thinking music lives inside a computer only. That's why it's never been more important to go into schools and play live, and have parents take kids to concerts. Once exposed to the real thing they'll want more. And Seeline, one of my biggest regrets is that I didn't hang w/Latino kids like w/black kids back in the day. My JHS and HS were integrated (pretty new for the early 70s, even in NY) . Everyone was checking everyone out, amd music was the bond. Lots of listening and jamming (I got my 1st guitar at 10, so by HS I was rea)

[fasstrack]

Pt. 2 ...ready. But we didn't hang w/Puerto Rican kids too tough. They were at school, but lived in other parts of Brooklyn. So I missed an important part of my social and musical education. The first time I heard the Fania All-Stars was in the living room of a Jewish kid from the next block. His uncle was Bobby Rodriguez. I was in my 20s by then. Man, we loved that record! So, yeah, I got kind of a late start..

[JSngry]

I wonder if people said the same thing about the printing press, and how people were getting all self-absorbed with their books now. I know that television made people stay at home more and socialize less. So, cell phones and such, not so much a new trend as the continuation of a long arc of a trend.

Meaning that iof people need an excuse to be self-absorbed and disinterested, they'll use whatever means the technology of the time allows to so be,

But back to the music - That Paula Morlenbaum record is really good. Insidiously good. Check it out!

[jazzbo]

Insidiously good indeed. I heard a few songs from that record and had to have it years ago. Amazing.

[seeline]

I really love a lot of Fania releases from the 70s... but Miguel Zenon is doing something different; he plays bomba and plena (which you've likely heard), but also uses other kinds of folkloric music that's not all that well known outside of PR. Same for trombonist William Cepeda, who grew up surrounded by folkloric music.

Edited October 8, 2012 by seeline

[fasstrack]

The thing about technology, Jim, in music specifically these past 40 years-and I know I'm a grouchy dinosaur-is this: A lot of individuality and nuance of sound and touch get lost in the keyboards and pedals. There's a sameness and I find I have to work harder to unearth who it is. Lots of keyboard and guitar players these days tend to run together, sort of morph together. It's esp. hard to keep an identity on keys b/c even the piano gives you very little compared to, say, a brass instrument. Nature of the beast. That's a bit of a drag for me since recognizing an individual sound and touch is one of the great pleasures, and I prefer it straight. I find, for example, I don't enjoy Jim Hall as much w/the pedals, etc. He has the right, of course. Probably he got bored. I just miss that masterful sound and touch. But, like I said, I'm a dinosaur and just caught up w/single coil P90 pickups. Tomorrow I have to look into this whole newfangled abacus thing..

[fasstrack]

Seeline: I didn't get Zenon when I heard him, including live. It seemed more complicated than it needed to be, sort of math puzzle-y. Don't remember the name of the recording. Branford's label. Can you recommend something by him a bit more melodic and in a more direct groove that an Afro-Cuban music ignoramus like myself might prefer for openers?

[JSngry]

The thing about technology, Jim, in music specifically these past 40 years-and I know I'm a grouchy dinosaur-is this: A lot of individuality and nuance of sound and touch get lost in the keyboards and pedals. There's a sameness and I find I have to work harder to unearth who it is. Lots of keyboard and guitar players these days tend to run together, sort of morph together. It's esp. hard to keep an identity on keys b/c even the piano gives you very little compared to, say, a brass instrument. Nature of the beast. That's a bit of a drag for me since recognizing an individual sound and touch is one of the great pleasures, and I prefer it straight.

And yet, back in the day, the difference between Herbie, Chick, & Zawinul was obvious no matter what machines they were using. Same with Bernard Worrell. Same with a totally plugged-in Miles, or even Don Ellis. And especially Eddie Harris.

I'll recount a story told to me by Dave Liebman. He was talking to Miles and expressed his frustration that he couldn't find anything new to say on "My Funny Valentine". Liebman said that Miles fixed him with a look and said, "Don't blame the tune.".

By the same token, the new technology has made it easier for everybody to get the same basic sounds, and since most people ahve the same basic ideas, well, there you have it - nothing has really changed as far as "individuality", what's changed has just been taht it's easier for the uninspired to present the impression of basic competency. This in turn simply reinforces people's basic urge to identify with themselves and not have to be challenged with their own "averageness".

It was different a while ago, because if you had nothing to say and/or couldn't really play, it would be obvious soon enough. People don't want to identify with "bad". But they will gladly identify with "good enough". You think that most people can tell the difference between competency and inspiration, between style and substance? Not only not now, no, but not ever.

So AFAIC, all that technology is doing today is exposing a mass lack of individuality that has always been there. I don't think it's contributing to it at all, not in the sense of turning people from creative to zombie. They were already zombies, there was just more stigma to admitting it. The individual's basic direction is still their own choice to make.

Plus, a big thing is that a lot of players who "come to" electronics/digital don't always feel the need to get fully immersed in it, often because it's not their voice, they jsut want to "experiment" with it. Whereas, you get these young folk that digital is more or less all they know, hey, they're not experimenting, they're doing. A lot of "under the radar" stuff going on that might sound all the same to us old folks who will never be able to fully "hear" that way, but...it's not meant for us, nor should it be.

Everything is a tool. Everything. Your single coil P90 pickup is no less nor no more a tool than is the laptop that one kid is using to "battle" another one with with their "beats".

[fasstrack]

The last couple of paragraphs, that's what I'm saying. The tech stuff won't give you talent, and it will cover up certain incompetencies to the untrained ear. OTOH if you HAVE the talent you can get the best out of any tool. The stuff Herbie did w/the Rhodes, esp. w/the Headhunters, his understanding of the instrument and the way he got in the cracks harmonically w/little outside punctuations on one chord while keeping the groove-that was brilliant to me. Zawinul didn't have the same effect on me. I loved his touch on piano and he also was a great Rhodes player w/Cannonball. By the time of Weather Report, which I liked, it looked like Mission Control w/all those keyboards. You couldn't even see him. It struck me as a bit of an ego trip, not nearly as musical as Herbie. Just my opinion.

[JSngry]

The tech stuff won't give you talent, and it will cover up certain incompetencies to the untrained ear.

Yes, and in doing so, it actually raises the bar, not lowers it.

People will at first think it's better to go under the bar, but once motherfuckers start getting ahead by going over the bar because its soo damn crowded under it, things will get back to forward.

Period of transition, that's all this is. Comes with every paradigm shift, and it might take a generation or century or so before it happens. But happen it will, because happen it does.

[fasstrack]

That was a little hard to follow but I think I got it. Glad we sorted THAT out (;

[seeline]

Seeline: I didn't get Zenon when I heard him, including live. It seemed more complicated than it needed to be, sort of math puzzle-y. Don't remember the name of the recording. Branford's label. Can you recommend something by him a bit more melodic and in a more direct groove that an Afro-Cuban music ignoramus like myself might prefer for openers?

I think William Cepeda's work is right up your alley - Afro-Puerto Rican music.

Zenon can be tough, I admit, but his playing is (imo) beautiful, and I love the tone he gets from the alto. There are a lot of live recordings for streaming/download on his site (some might be more to your taste), plus the extensive liner notes (not included with the disc) that he wrote for his 1st CD are there, too. they might be really interesting to you, in terms of his descriptions of the different folkloric forms that he's using, and their history.

Here's a nice Cepeda vid - the music all comes from his home village, Loiza. (The familia Cepeda are very well-known as keepers of the Afro-Rican flame, as are another family from Loiza, the Ayalas.)

Edited October 8, 2012 by seeline

[JSngry]

Serious question - is this the same Cepeda family that produced the great baseball player Orlando Cepeda? Orlando was a very enthusiastic amateur salsero.

[seeline]

I have no idea, but William could probably tell you!

[fasstrack]

Thanks. I think I'll check out Cepeda 1st. Always could relate to and get along w/trombone players.

[seeline]

I really like what I've heard of William's music - he has so many projects going, it's not funny. (fwiw, trombone is big in certain kinds of samba as well.)

Enjoy!

Edited October 8, 2012 by seeline