Riverside CDR

[jeffcrom]

I thought about posting this in the "death of the CD" thread, but thought that it deserved its own thread.



A few weeks ago I bought a sealed Riverside Original Blues Classic CD, Sonny Terry and His Mouth Harp, from an excellent local brick-and-mortar CD store. (Shout-out to Decatur CD!) I took it home and played it - sounded great for an early-50s recording. When I took it out to play it again a few days later, I noticed, to my surprise, that it's a CDR with a pasted-on label, not a silver CD. There is nothing on the packaging to indicate that it's anything but a regular CD. There's also no mention on the Condord website or the Amazon listing about it being a CDR.

I took it back to the store - not to complain or to get my money back, but to see if Warren, the owner, knew that Concord was doing this. He was shocked, and first thought that it might be a bootleg. He ordered another copy directly from Concord - it was also a CDR.

I kept the album, because I like the music, and doubt I could find it any other physical format. But I surmise that Concord is quietly substituting CDRs of some low-demand items, and not mentioning it.

Edited April 11, 2013 by jeffcrom

[Ted O'Reilly]

I though about posting this in the "death of the CD" thread, but thought that it deserved its own thread.

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I kept the album, because I like the music, and doubt I could find it any other physical format.

I'd burn a copy of that -- I've had troubles over the years with CDRs that have pasted-on labels. It might be a chemical corrosion thing.

Your own burned copy might very well outlast the one you bought. (I have found it's usually safe to use a felt-tip to write on the 'new' disc...)

[cih]

When Document Records began doing this a few years ago I emailed them with my concerns - I got a prompt reply, which although it was very courteous and friendly was a bit disconcerting. The MD told me they had purchased a 'CD pressing machine' (on advise from their supplier) to make their own CDs, and that the 'CDs' were industry standard for audio listening. Also the machine came with an inkjet printer attached to do the labels. She was far more concerned about the appearance of the labels, which were white, and I think assumed this was also my main concern. So then they changed to printing onto the surface of the disc, thus making it even more difficult to tell visually which were CDR and which were not! Appended to the email message was a googled description of the difference between a CD and a CDR. It was obvious that they knew as little about the issues as I did and I really believe they were acting somewhat in ignorance to save money, relying entirely on advise from the supplier of the hardware. A second email stated that they thought that the CDRs were 'normal CDs' and not 'CD Roms' (and also that given the choice they'd bring back 33rpms tomorrow..

Occasionally I still get a Document CD or two, and there is no way of determining beforehand which it will be - CD or CDR - it's a gamble - and if I wasn't aware of the situation I doubt I would notice (& to me this is not a plus point!)

Edited September 12, 2012 by cih

[jeffcrom]

I though about posting this in the "death of the CD" thread, but thought that it deserved its own thread.

///////////////////

I kept the album, because I like the music, and doubt I could find it any other physical format.

I'd burn a copy of that -- I've had troubles over the years with CDRs that have pasted-on labels. It might be a chemical corrosion thing.

Your own burned copy might very well outlast the one you bought. (I have found it's usually safe to use a felt-tip to write on the 'new' disc...)

Yes; the few commercial CDRs I have bought - a Soul Note from Amazon (I missed the line in the description about it being a CDR) and a couple of Documents - I back up right away. Edited September 7, 2014 by jeffcrom

[romualdo]

I recently purchased a number of Ogun CDs from Hazel Miller & one (SOFT HEAD - Rogue Element OG CD13) appears to be a CDr (thinner with greenish tinge & no fine print on the inner ring)

Also, a recent Candid aquisition (Benny Bailey) was also a CDr

[mikeweil]

Well, if this would mean items selling only in few copies are kept in print, I wouldn't mind ...

[AllenLowe]

I don't mind CDRs - if they are charging $5 per cd; blanks (good ones) can be purchased in bulk for 15-20 cents a piece (or less.).

As for Document, they are COMPLETE idiots - they responded somewhere that they were assured by their distributor that they were using the best blanks available - which at the time were Sony, and which anyone who checked around could have found out were the WORST ones currently out (lots of bad ones; I bought a box of 25 in which the first 5 were bad; I just returned the rest; there were stories all over the internet about their problems). So clearly their distributor was trying to unload something they knew was crap.

Oi.

Edited September 12, 2012 by AllenLowe

[jeffcrom]

Yes to the two posts above. My shock came from the fact that it was sold to me as a CD, at full price. If you're going to sell a CDR, label it as such and price it accordingly.

[six string]

Congratulations to the recording industry for finally waking up and using media that won't last, hence requiring repurchase.

Perfect sound forever? They saw what that got them. Lps and cassettes had limited lifetimes so why would they want to make something that would actually last? It goes against most business models.

[bichos]

look below!

keep boppin´

marcel

[jeffcrom]

Okay, things seem to be deteriorating since I started this thread. I assumed that the Concord put the Sonny Terry album on CDr because it was such a low-demand item, with even less demand than their mainstream jazz issues. Well, I asked my favorite local brick-and-mortar CD store to order me a copy of Jackie McLean's Prestige CD Lights Out. The store owner said that it was backordered, but should eventually come in. It did, after a few weeks, and I picked it up today. It's a CDr. Again, there is no indication anywhere on the packaging that it was anything but a factory-made silver CD.

I'm not going to buy any more Concord products anytime soon.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

How can you tell positively if something is a CDR? I have more Concord/Fantasy stuff than anything in my collection.

MG

[cih]

You can download software which can identify the manufacturer of a CDR in your pc (never tried it myself - I go by sight - which really only works when you have a definite real one against a CDR from the same company for comparison, on CDR you can often see a slight change in colour on the silver side where the data ends, so the outer few millimetres or so will look slightly different - difficult if the disc space is fully used up. Also, in the case of Document, on the real ones the CD serial number is visible on the silver, running around the centre whole. The CDR ones obviously have been burned to generic discs so no serial number

Edited April 11, 2013 by cih

[jeffcrom]

How can you tell positively if something is a CDR? I have more Concord/Fantasy stuff than anything in my collection.

MG

It used to be obvious, but it's harder to tell than it used to be. Comparing my new CDr to a recent Concord/Prestige CD:

The CDr has more of a purplish tinge. CDrs are generally not as silver as CDs, but they have gotten closer. The CDr is also more refractive - you see more of a "rainbow" than a CD displays when you hold them under the light.

The CD has the catalog number laser-etched in the inner ring on the playing side. There are some numbers in the inner ring of the CDr, but they don't have any relationship to any numbers (catalog number, bar code) on the booklet or tray card. One of the etchings in the inner ring of the CDr is "T80-VG-5," which sounds to me like a type of CDr.

A little poking around the internet let me know that I already have a program which with identify CDrs - Nero DiscSpeed. It ID'ed it as a CDr.

CIH posted while I was writing this - I've repeated a little of what he said, and endorse the bit about the different look of the unused portion of the disc.

[jeffcrom]

As I explored Nero DiscSpeed a little more, I found that it even knew the manufacturer of the CDr used by Concord: TDK.

[erwbol]

How can you tell positively if something is a CDR? I have more Concord/Fantasy stuff than anything in my collection.

 

MG

As long as they are European pressings I believe you are save. All of those discs I bought have the Universal logo and appropriate codes in the inner ring of the playing surface. They were 'Made in Germany by EDC.'

2015 update: Universal Europe has also started using CD-Rs for titles they have run out of stock on.

Edited September 11, 2015 by erwbol

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Thanks for all that. I dug out a few US Concord issues to have a look. The Ray Charles ABC singles box seems to be OK, also Red Garland at the Prelude and the RVG of Hawk relaxes. I checked out a few Document CDs; they've all got numbers, but they aren't the same as the catalogue numbers, so maybe...

Remembering about the bronzing issue, I dug out a couple I remember as being particularly bronzed. Tata Bambo Kouyate's 'Jatigui' on Globestyle (an Ace label) and Djeli Moussa Diawara's 'Direct from West Africa' (Oval). The Ace one is VERY brown; the colour of milk chocolate. But they both have their catalogue numbers in the inside bit. I've had 'em both for over twenty years and played them both a lot.

So, possibly I'm OK.

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

After a quick cough and drag, I remembered a few more Ace CDs that look bronzed. I suspect this is something that Ace CDs were a bit prone to, as I found lots, though sometimes it's not particularly noticeable as they're on Specialty and most of the disc is covered by the label design, but you can see a bit of bronzing around the outer edge. These are all ones I've had for over 20 years.

MG

[cih]

Another way with the Document ones - generally I think the 'real' ones have the tracks listed on the CD itself - I haven't seen a Document CDR with the tracks listed on the disc itself

[A Lark Ascending]

After a quick cough and drag, I remembered a few more Ace CDs that look bronzed. I suspect this is something that Ace CDs were a bit prone to, as I found lots, though sometimes it's not particularly noticeable as they're on Specialty and most of the disc is covered by the label design, but you can see a bit of bronzing around the outer edge. These are all ones I've had for over 20 years.

MG

Do you have any idea when they were made? There was a big problem with a pressing plant that allowed the print on the discs to seep into the sound layers leading to bronzing and, eventually, damage. Happened around 1990. A lot of Hyperion discs which used that plant were affected. I have a few that have bronzed badly. Most I've CD-rd before they can collapse but I never got to a Shostakovich Preludes and Fugues in time. That misplays dreadfully.

Details:

http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/bronzed.asp

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

After a quick cough and drag, I remembered a few more Ace CDs that look bronzed. I suspect this is something that Ace CDs were a bit prone to, as I found lots, though sometimes it's not particularly noticeable as they're on Specialty and most of the disc is covered by the label design, but you can see a bit of bronzing around the outer edge. These are all ones I've had for over 20 years.

MG

Do you have any idea when they were made? There was a big problem with a pressing plant that allowed the print on the discs to seep into the sound layers leading to bronzing and, eventually, damage. Happened around 1990. A lot of Hyperion discs which used that plant were affected. I have a few that have bronzed badly. Most I've CD-rd before they can collapse but I never got to a Shostakovich Preludes and Fugues in time. That misplays dreadfully.

I checked several covering the period 1996-2008 and they all seem to be OK.

MG

[jeffcrom]

Oh, and I should have said right off - almost all CDr's have a label attached to the disc, rather than printed on the disc. Some silver CDs, like the recent Concords, also have that kind of label, though. But (someone correct me if I'm wrong) - any disc with text, logo, etc. printed directly onto the disc (with the silver disc showing through the blank spots) is almost certainly a real CD. All my "real" Documents have black type printed directly onto the disc; all my Document CDr's have black type on a white label which completely covers the top surface of the disc.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Lost the earlier part of my post.

The bronze ones are all ones I bought in 1990-92.

MG

Oh, and I should have said right off - almost all CDr's have a label attached to the disc, rather than printed on the disc. Some silver CDs, like the recent Concords, also have that kind of label, though. But (someone correct me if I'm wrong) - any disc with text, logo, etc. printed directly onto the disc (with the silver disc showing through the blank spots) is almost certainly a real CD. All my "real" Documents have black type printed directly onto the disc; all my Document CDr's have black type on a white label which completely covers the top surface of the disc.

Oh right - I tried that with one I knowingly bought as a CDR and you can feel that there's a label there, even though it's very nicely done. This makes it fairly clear. Thanks. I'll rip them to my hard drive without delay.

MG

[A Lark Ascending]

Lost the earlier part of my post.

The bronze ones are all ones I bought in 1990-92.

MG

That would seem to fit in. From the Hyperion link:

The faulty discs were all manufactured during the five year period from 1988 to 1993. The problem was that the lacquer used to coat the discs was not resistant to the sulphur content of the paper in the booklets and inlays, which resulted in the corrosion of the aluminium layer of the disc

********

I've had no problems with CD-rs I've burnt myself over the last 10 years.

I have had problems with the handful of bought ones I own. When Neil Ardley was alive he issued CD-rs of his OOP print recordings. One of those had a strange revolving sound that got louder as the disc went on. Another folk one on a label specialising in hardcore folky stuff - Musical Traditions - has a similar problem,

I suspect it's connected with bulk burning.

Edited April 11, 2013 by A Lark Ascending

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Lost the earlier part of my post.

The bronze ones are all ones I bought in 1990-92.

MG

That would seem to fit in. From the Hyperion link:

The faulty discs were all manufactured during the five year period from 1988 to 1993. The problem was that the lacquer used to coat the discs was not resistant to the sulphur content of the paper in the booklets and inlays, which resulted in the corrosion of the aluminium layer of the disc

More candidates for a quick rip.

This is one of the most useful threads of the year.

MG