EVERYBODY -- PLEASE READ

[RDK]

In general, what is killing bulletin boards is Facebook. So many people are on Facebook that it is a handy one-stop socializing point; when enough of your fellow BB members are also on Facebook, you can just hang with them there, with all your other Facebook friends also at hand. Facebook kills off trolls because they are simply de-friended when they get out of hand. As people spend more time on Facebook, they spend less time on bulletin boards. As traffic decreases on boards, they are less and less attractive to newcomers--of whom there are fewer anyway, because they are all on Facebook. public

Facebook: ugh. A grazing field for sheep. The same sheep that have white earbuds in their brainless heads b/c Steue Jobs conned them think they they'll be pariahs if they're not on FB. I have FRIENDS-don't need 'friends'. When is the world going to wake up and see how FAKE this BS is?

Kinda surprised you have so many FRIENDS/"friends" when you're so quick to ridicule those of us who like our "friends" both here and there. I'm sure one of these days those one billion facebook "sheep" will realize just how right you are.

[Tom Storer]

4. This is a board made up of people that I think the next youngest to me is 25-30-years older and I am in my 20's. It's members who are my parents to Great-Grandparents age and they have been talking/arguing/insulting each other over 11+ years. There are threads which are thousands of posts long. Just how many "newbies" do you think are going to wade through all that?...and figure out why the whole duplicate thread thing is idiotic. God help if a duplicate thread might lead to people talking once again something they discussed previously (Oh, the humanity!) and maybe passing the knowledge on any "newbie" (if there ever really ever is another one) who would have never taking the time to go through the thousands of posts in the original thread.

Well, EXCUUUUUSE ME for being born when I was born! ;-) Seriously, grasshopper, if young people are uninterested in the wisdom of their elders, what are you going to do? What I mean to say is that censoring one's spontaneous comments, questions, musings, etc., to try to make sure they are attractive to potential newbies is not likely to make any difference in our tragic march to oblivion. But I see your point about the potential value of duplicate threads (Larry, take note): someone coming to the board through a Google search and winding up at a freshly created thread that is scores rather than hundreds of posts long might be more likely to stay to read it all, while coming across a huge, ancient thread might be daunting.

5. Keep in mind I didn't even bring up the whole Homer Simpson response and fetish (there is no other word to describe it.) over "mastering"....at times I think the engineers/bits/formats are more important to some of you than the musicians or music. I have lost track how many times I have laughed at Mr. Nessa's comments on the subject. He just did it again today. Never mind just how much you're really hurting Jazz and new musicians when you're so occupied with reissues of things you probably bought 5-10 times already.

I don't agree with the idea of "old" jazz being in a zero-sum game with current jazz. All of us have nourished our tastes and understanding with significant exploration of the music of the past. It's what anchors long-term jazz listeners: the continuum. The newbie you're chasing may have never heard of the music on the Nessa label, no matter how many times some of it has been released. And it's not like the market is FLOODED with old Roscoe Mitchell records, boring the pants off all the young people and keeping them from listening to Esperanza Spalding.

6. There are a great deal of younger Jazz fans, or potential ones....and you're really doing your best to make sure all this wealth of knowledge dies and/or isn't passed along.

I think you confuse two things: one, actively preventing dissemination of knowledge about jazz; two, boring you on a bulletin board you're fed up with. To say that people who regularly meet online, publicly, to share a wide range of detailed jazz knowledge are "doing their best" to make sure that knowledge dies or isn't passed along simply doesn't make any sense.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Tom Storer

[Dan Gould]

Why is anyone engaging this little shit?

He is a typical 20-something, no different than he was at any time in his entire life: he's running around screaming "look at meeeeee!" and "you people SUCK!" and we're doing just what he wants: paying attention.

[fasstrack]

I wasn't denigrating people just for using FB. There are good reasons to use social networks. But the herd mentality and manipulation of same are pervasive. You don't NEED social 'connectivity' or the latest toy Barnum tells you you're nowhere if you don't purchase. And of course there'll a 'new, improved' one in 6 months, and the inevitable lines of cattle waiting to get it as the purveyors rub their hands and say 'c'hing!'. As W.C. Fields would say 'Fooled 'em again..'. Personally, though somewhat dim-witted, I've done all my own thinking since the age of, oh, 47-and prefer the company of similarly independent dimwits. (; Technology has its points, but is largely a lie. It's Only a Paper Moon..

[jazzbo]

Considering every post so far seems to be proving my point....I think this is a lost in translation thing. It's online after all.

1 I think JC is also a Dead BB Walking. And they also have/had a knowledgeable amount of people and a wealth of knowledge that has been posted on that site.

2. Where exactly did I say music isn't discussed on here? This place has half the "members" and has 300,000+ more posts. The music discussed is more pigeonholed (and don't get me wrong I love it as well), but still music is being discussed. Even if you take away all the political/sports and whatnot.

3. Did you know according to this site the most people online at one time is 691 on 03 June 2012 - 03:56 AM. I have no idea WTF? could have been so interesting at that time, but still. How many joined? How many posted? How many under even 40? How many will still be posting if they do post after a week? How many are even women?

4. This is a board made up of people that I think the next youngest to me is 25-30-years older and I am in my 20's. It's members who are my parents to Great-Grandparents age and they have been talking/arguing/insulting each other over 11+ years. There are threads which are thousands of posts long. Just how many "newbies" do you think are going to wade through all that?...and figure out why the whole duplicate thread thing is idiotic. God help if a duplicate thread might lead to people talking once again something they discussed previously (Oh, the humanity!) and maybe passing the knowledge on any "newbie" (if there ever really ever is another one) who would have never taking the time to go through the thousands of posts in the original thread.

5. Keep in mind I didn't even bring up the whole Homer Simpson response and fetish (there is no other word to describe it.) over "mastering"....at times I think the engineers/bits/formats are more important to some of you than the musicians or music. I have lost track how many times I have laughed at Mr. Nessa's comments on the subject. He just did it again today. Never mind just how much you're really hurting Jazz and new musicians when you're so occupied with reissues of things you probably bought 5-10 times already. I swear, I found in my Archeological digging a discussing about reversing polarity of the speakers to get the "right sound". That thread really might be the non-political Jump the Shark point I have found.

6. There are a great deal of younger Jazz fans, or potential ones....and you're really doing your best to make sure all this wealth of knowledge dies and/or isn't passed along.

7. Read my post(s) again and try to figure out why this place is a Dead BB Walking that might as well be completely exclusive & private....like the political forum.

Hey! I think you should start your own board. This one just won't do.

[fasstrack]

Read a little more carefully before you judge and snap, man. I never said Jobs had anything to do with FB. I DO say that the people walking around zombie-like lost in gadgets and walking into each other like silly geese are doing so with his products. And as a musician dedicated to playing outside every day partly for money but largely to campaign for real music done live for and by real people I have to work 3x as hard for 1/3 the money b/c people have buds in their ears, gadgets in their hands, and heads up their asses. Want music? No prob, click and steal it. Intellectual property? What's that, old-timer, and why should I give a shit? You'd be blowing off steam too if you were me. I don't understand it. It more than concerns me. It scares me-like looking daily into the face of stupidy and massive laziness that's purveyed by profiteers.

[fasstrack]

Weird. The post I just responded to (it said 'that makes no sense...') seems to have disappeared. Did the guy delete it? Maybe I was snoozing and the penny arcade genie from Big made a house call to grant me 3 wishes...

[sonnymax]

...There are a great deal of younger Jazz fans, or potential ones....and you're really doing your best to make sure all this wealth of knowledge dies and/or isn't passed along...this place is a Dead BB Walking that might as well be completely exclusive & private....

...Facebook: ugh. A grazing field for sheep...When is the world going to wake up and see how FAKE this BS is?

Angry young man, meet grumpy old man.

[AllenLowe]

no gap here.

[fasstrack]

I'm only 58-AND someone called me 'young man' the other day. I SWEAR.. Um, you wouldn't tell anybody the guy was 105, wouldya?

[fasstrack]

Hey, maybe me and the Angry Young Man could get together and co-host an MSNBC debate show. Starting Over. Like Elliot Spitzer and the pets.com dog-hey, everyone deserves a 2nd chance (;

[jlhoots]

Why is anyone engaging this little shit?

He is a typical 20-something, no different than he was at any time in his entire life: he's running around screaming "look at meeeeee!" and "you people SUCK!" and we're doing just what he wants: paying attention.

OMG, I agree with Dan.

[Dan Gould]

Had to happen eventually.

[fasstrack]

Re Tom Storer's observation about FB 'killing off trolls': ignore buttons on BBs do pretty much the same thing, plus it's a closed commity of like-minded folk. I don't need millions of people looking at my FB page, it kind of gives me the creeps. As I observed on a thread about FB detractors, when I get email 'notifications pending' messages it also irritates me b/c my email is for friends/business contacts and I get enough spam. Spam is what it is, too, invitations to gigs by people I don't know who could care less about me except as a warm ass in a seat-often in another city! Hustling is cool-musos have to-just not on my time and dime when I'm waiting on email I actually care about. As to trolls: like cats, feed them and they'll keep coming back. Click on Ignore and starve a troll today.

[Jazzmoose]

Wow. We're all a bunch of great friends until someone points out a couple of oddities here. Then it's cast out the unbeliever time. I think Blue Train has some valid points. This isn't a living, growing board, it's a group that's mainly known each other for years, with a new stalwart joining fairly infrequently. Personally, I have no problem with this; none of us is going to live forever, who says the board will? On the other hand, if you're concerned about that and want the board to live far into the future, I think it's a completely valid concern. As for the 'multiple thread' rule, yeah, I'd say 'silly' is the perfect description. Things like that, or snide "search is your friend" comments are exactly the kind of thing that alienate new members, causing them to just say fuck it and leave. It's such a classic spinster school marm reaction that it crosses the line well into silly.

[Tom Storer]

Re Tom Storer's observation about FB 'killing off trolls': ignore buttons on BBs do pretty much the same thing, plus it's a closed commity of like-minded folk. I don't need millions of people looking at my FB page, it kind of gives me the creeps. As I observed on a thread about FB detractors, when I get email 'notifications pending' messages it also irritates me b/c my email is for friends/business contacts and I get enough spam. Spam is what it is, too, invitations to gigs by people I don't know who could care less about me except as a warm ass in a seat-often in another city! Hustling is cool-musos have to-just not on my time and dime when I'm waiting on email I actually care about. As to trolls: like cats, feed them and they'll keep coming back. Click on Ignore and starve a troll today.

I can well understand objections to Facebook on multiple grounds: their exploitation of private data, the trivial aspect of so many FB posts, and other more philosophical points. But if you worry about "millions of people" reading your FB page, and email messages about "notifications pending"--that's just a question of understanding FB account settings. You can keep your posts visible only to your "friends," and you can disable email notifications. I'm just saying.

As for trolls, in practice, your average troll has a very good success rate in message boards. For every poster who uses the ignore button, there's another willing to flame back and forth endlessly. The one-to-one nature of FB relationships means that it's harder for trolls to get traction. This is my experience, anyway: trolls on boards last years before they're banned, trolls on Facebook calm down right quick.

[AllenLowe]

I want to be sympathetic to Blue Train, but I think he jumped the shark, intellectually, a while back; and to say,as he did: y"ou're really hurting Jazz and new musicians when you're so occupied with reissues of things you probably bought 5-10 times already" misses the point. I, like many others here, buy reissues only if I don't have 'em, or if they are so improved as to make the music seem new. As for Blue Train's implied accusation that we are antiquarians, the reality is anything but. Jazz is a complicated music in which, as Philip Larkin has said, "the past refuses to be over." I find his post as very symptomatic of the new anti-intellectuality.

Edited September 13, 2012 by AllenLowe

[Quincy]

I don't need millions of people looking at my FB page, it kind of gives me the creeps.

There won't be millions of people looking at your FB page. *#@&(!.

[Larry Kart]

Wow. We're all a bunch of great friends until someone points out a couple of oddities here. Then it's cast out the unbeliever time. I think Blue Train has some valid points. This isn't a living, growing board, it's a group that's mainly known each other for years, with a new stalwart joining fairly infrequently. Personally, I have no problem with this; none of us is going to live forever, who says the board will? On the other hand, if you're concerned about that and want the board to live far into the future, I think it's a completely valid concern. As for the 'multiple thread' rule, yeah, I'd say 'silly' is the perfect description. Things like that, or snide "search is your friend" comments are exactly the kind of thing that alienate new members, causing them to just say fuck it and leave. It's such a classic spinster school marm reaction that it crosses the line well into silly.

No, it's not the biggest deal, but in post #57 above I stated what I thought the disadvantages of duplicates threads were and what the advantages of not having duplicates threads were. So what might be the advantages of duplicate threads? I'm willing to listen.

As for the the spinster school marm thing, while the situations may not be quite parallel, I recall an ill-fated college course I took in Homeric Greek, which was taught by one of the world's chief experts on the subject. Our first task was to memorize the 24-letter Greek alphabet, from Alpha to Omicron. Something of a child of the 1960s, or perhaps just a lazy schmuck, I failed to do this by the second day of class, as was the case for a good many others. When the teacher realized this, he pointed out that until we knew the alphabet we would be greatly handicapped in looking up anything in the Greek-to-English side of our Greek-English dictionaries, and that as novices we would be looking up things there a whole lot.

[JSngry]

Dead Language Walking!

[GA Russell]

As for the the spinster school marm thing, while the situations may not be quite parallel, I recall an ill-fated college course I took in Homeric Greek, which was taught by one of the world's chief experts on the subject. Our first task was to memorize the 24-letter Greek alphabet, from Alpha to Omicron.

Larry, the Greek alphabet extends to Omega, way past Omicron! Please don't tell me that you dropped the course rather than learn the alphabet!

[J.A.W.]

Wow. We're all a bunch of great friends until someone points out a couple of oddities here. Then it's cast out the unbeliever time. I think Blue Train has some valid points. This isn't a living, growing board, it's a group that's mainly known each other for years, with a new stalwart joining fairly infrequently. Personally, I have no problem with this; none of us is going to live forever, who says the board will? On the other hand, if you're concerned about that and want the board to live far into the future, I think it's a completely valid concern. As for the 'multiple thread' rule, yeah, I'd say 'silly' is the perfect description. Things like that, or snide "search is your friend" comments are exactly the kind of thing that alienate new members, causing them to just say fuck it and leave. It's such a classic spinster school marm reaction that it crosses the line well into silly.

No, it's not the biggest deal, but in post #57 above I stated what I thought the disadvantages of duplicates threads were and what the advantages of not having duplicates threads were. So what might be the advantages of duplicate threads? I'm willing to listen.

As for the the spinster school marm thing, while the situations may not be quite parallel, I recall an ill-fated college course I took in Homeric Greek, which was taught by one of the world's chief experts on the subject. Our first task was to memorize the 24-letter Greek alphabet, from Alpha to Omicron. Something of a child of the 1960s, or perhaps just a lazy schmuck, I failed to do this by the second day of class, as was the case for a good many others. When the teacher realized this, he pointed out that until we knew the alphabet we would be greatly handicapped in looking up anything in the Greek-to-English side of our Greek-English dictionaries, and that as novices we would be looking up things there a whole lot.

Errr... The Greek alphabet runs from alpha to omega:

[Kevin Bresnahan]

No duplicate threads is especially important for "RIP..." threads. I have been a member of a forum, now defunct, that allowed duplicate threads and when a name player died, there were usually 4 or 5 simultaneous threads about it, each with several replies. It was stupid and annoying. I am glad that most forums today stop this kind of stuff.

[Clunky]

Wow. We're all a bunch of great friends until someone points out a couple of oddities here. Then it's cast out the unbeliever time. I think Blue Train has some valid points. This isn't a living, growing board, it's a group that's mainly known each other for years, with a new stalwart joining fairly infrequently. Personally, I have no problem with this; none of us is going to live forever, who says the board will? On the other hand, if you're concerned about that and want the board to live far into the future, I think it's a completely valid concern. As for the 'multiple thread' rule, yeah, I'd say 'silly' is the perfect description. Things like that, or snide "search is your friend" comments are exactly the kind of thing that alienate new members, causing them to just say fuck it and leave. It's such a classic spinster school marm reaction that it crosses the line well into silly.

No, it's not the biggest deal, but in post #57 above I stated what I thought the disadvantages of duplicates threads were and what the advantages of not having duplicates threads were. So what might be the advantages of duplicate threads? I'm willing to listen.

As for the the spinster school marm thing, while the situations may not be quite parallel, I recall an ill-fated college course I took in Homeric Greek, which was taught by one of the world's chief experts on the subject. Our first task was to memorize the 24-letter Greek alphabet, from Alpha to Omicron. Something of a child of the 1960s, or perhaps just a lazy schmuck, I failed to do this by the second day of class, as was the case for a good many others. When the teacher realized this, he pointed out that until we knew the alphabet we would be greatly handicapped in looking up anything in the Greek-to-English side of our Greek-English dictionaries, and that as novices we would be looking up things there a whole lot.

Errr... The Greek alphabet runs from alpha to omega:

was this at the Dorothy Parker Helenic Academy

[Larry Kart]

Wow. We're all a bunch of great friends until someone points out a couple of oddities here. Then it's cast out the unbeliever time. I think Blue Train has some valid points. This isn't a living, growing board, it's a group that's mainly known each other for years, with a new stalwart joining fairly infrequently. Personally, I have no problem with this; none of us is going to live forever, who says the board will? On the other hand, if you're concerned about that and want the board to live far into the future, I think it's a completely valid concern. As for the 'multiple thread' rule, yeah, I'd say 'silly' is the perfect description. Things like that, or snide "search is your friend" comments are exactly the kind of thing that alienate new members, causing them to just say fuck it and leave. It's such a classic spinster school marm reaction that it crosses the line well into silly.

No, it's not the biggest deal, but in post #57 above I stated what I thought the disadvantages of duplicates threads were and what the advantages of not having duplicates threads were. So what might be the advantages of duplicate threads? I'm willing to listen.

As for the the spinster school marm thing, while the situations may not be quite parallel, I recall an ill-fated college course I took in Homeric Greek, which was taught by one of the world's chief experts on the subject. Our first task was to memorize the 24-letter Greek alphabet, from Alpha to Omicron. Something of a child of the 1960s, or perhaps just a lazy schmuck, I failed to do this by the second day of class, as was the case for a good many others. When the teacher realized this, he pointed out that until we knew the alphabet we would be greatly handicapped in looking up anything in the Greek-to-English side of our Greek-English dictionaries, and that as novices we would be looking up things there a whole lot.

Errr... The Greek alphabet runs from alpha to omega:

I said the course was ill-fated -- especially for me.

I should have dropped it, just got a bad grade, learned much less than I could have. Wish I could have gone to college ten years later in life than I did, maybe twenty years later.