Alice Coltrane ...

[mikeweil]

There is a discussion going on in the jazz subforum on a German classical music forum about the spirituality of Coltrane's music, and some member stated that Alice Coltrane "destroyed" the classic quartet with McCoy Tyner and Elvin Jones by urging her husband into some doubtful religious developments.

I personally find this is nonsense, but still, what do you think about it?

For those who read German, a link.

[Pete C]

It's the Yoko trope all over again...

[mikeweil]

The comparison with the story about Yoko splitting The Beatles was indeed made in that thread ...

[jazzbo]

I don't have enough information about the personal life of the Coltranes and the inner workings of the Coltrane group to say "that's impossible." It does seem more likely the quartet fell through for other reasons.

[Pete C]

Supposedly Elvin left because he didn't like Trane's idea of a two-drummer group with Rashied.

[clifford_thornton]

That's what I remember hearing & reading, too, though only those who were there know.

[JSngry]

John Coltrane was a grown-ass man. Some people are still looking for reasons to explain away where he went in the last year or so of his life and the whys of why he went there instead of dealing with it in straight-up musical/mathematical/metaphysical terms. Blame the Panthers! Blame the acid! Blame Alice!

No, don't blame anything. Just follow the music. It works, although not always. But it gets there, and when it does, hey, there it is. Deal with it or don't, but don't try to wish it away as a "mistake" or any other kind of "wrong". You can't. When it works, that shit makes perfect sense.

[mikeweil]

That's the way I see it, too. The guy who thinks Alice destroyed the quartet loves its music so much, and dislikes OM - that's alright with me, but why put down the stuff he doesn't like, and why look for such a reason?

Jim, may I quote your last post on that other forum, because I think that's a perfect way of saying this?

Lewis Porter's book, btw, gives a much more sophisticated picture of the process - that groups and its members evolve is natural, as are personnel changes along the way.

In some way, Elvin must have liked the idea of multiple percussionists, just listen to his Blue Note sessions until 1970. Not quite as free in style, but still. What I deduct from Porter's book, Elvin and Rashied Ali didn't mesh.

[colinmce]

Rashied says in AS SERIOUS AS YOUR LIFE that he was not the most humble young man in those days. That couldn't help with a guy like Elvin.

As for Alice, I'm with Jim. I trust the great artists to take me where they will; this isn't Burger King, you don't make it your way.

[Chuck Nessa]

I saw both groups over a couple of years and it seemed like a natural progression.

[king ubu]

Too much to read over there, but that one guy conservatifitizes (or whatever) himself, even if he says he doesn't. Glad I'm no member there, I'd turn crazy!

Also someone tell them that the Düsseldorf set from the 1960 Miles tour (which in its recent reissue still sounds rather crappy, alas - I had hopes since it does seem legit, that they'd try somewhat harder to locate better, undubbed, un-fake-applaused, tapes) isn't a live performance.

Edited July 9, 2012 by king ubu

[JSngry]

Jim, may I quote your last post on that other forum, because I think that's a perfect way of saying this?

Will I be hunted down like a wounded animal by the Trane Police? :g

I mean, seriously...there are some fanatics out there who will tell you in all seriousness that Alice didn't know changes - any changes - and that she was just playing random noise behind Trane. Alice McLeod does not exist in this world, and it is surprisingly well-populated by people who should know better (I'm talking, like, really good musicians whose ears just clinch up like an alumized sphincter once McCoy's gone...they got no problem w/Rahsied, mostly, it's just Alice..yeah, the Yoko thing, I think it is, lotsa weirdass gynophobia in that world...), and they get pretty worked up about it..

Alice did play different chords than McCoy, but hell - Trane was working with different harmonic structures his ownself, so...people need to stop looking for temptress-based excuses and start looking at the music itself.

[mikeweil]

Will I be hunted down like a wounded animal by the Trane Police? :g

Depends on how my translation comes across ...

That Alice-o-phobic said he had proof or whatever about Alice's doings but didn't have his library at hand - I'm curious about the things he comes up with, if he does.

Glad I'm no member there, I'd turn crazy!

I sometimes do! German music forums are a drag, most of the time ...

[king ubu]

Will I be hunted down like a wounded animal by the Trane Police? :g

Depends on how my translation comes across ...

That Alice-o-phobic said he had proof or whatever about Alice's doings but didn't have his library at hand - I'm curious about the things he comes up with, if he does.

Glad I'm no member there, I'd turn crazy!

I sometimes do! German music forums are a drag, most of the time ...

Proof? The plot thickens!

She must have replaced Trane's brain sometime late in 1965 without anyone noticing!

(I'm only a member of the german RollingStone forum - that's quite fun, most of the time, but obviously the scope goes way beyond jazz, and those interested in jazz are quite few.)

[Guy Berger]

I don't have a lot to add to what Jim wrote above, except that it would have been extremely tragic to forgo most of Trane's 1966-67 music. (If the Alice-haters are also lumping in the 1965 music in their conspiracy theories, even worse.)

I think it is telling that McCoy included Alice on Extensions.

Guy

[Late]

I think it is telling that McCoy included Alice on Extensions.

Excellent point.

I've read (I think around the time when Alice passed) that she regretted the original quartet dissolving. There's a quote out there somewhere to this effect. That point notwithstanding, the group seemed ready to explode anyway. To my thinking (at least), Alice and Rashied seemed the most logical next step. Just imagine the groups Coltrane would/could have had were he to have lived into the 70's and beyond. I'm sure they would be different than the 1966 quartet.