"Bixing"

[JSngry]

I'm with Jim on this one.

Think of how the whole world we live in has been shaped by information, misinformation and emotion. For good or bad, it's the human condition.

I'm with him, too, until my car breaks down in the desert. Then I want some of that shaped by information stuff.

When that happens, not even the best-written Grant Green biography imaginable will help you.

Like Dan Gould suggested, would some discreet straightening out of those glaring errors (that, judging from what all of you say, seem to abound) by knowledgeable editors (without interfering with the narrative as such) really have lessened or "falsified" the impact of oral histories and personal reminiscences such as this and made them less "authentic"? I don't think so.

Nor do I.

But it didn't. It would have been very nice indeed, but, it didn't.

And so, deal with it.

And if it does happen, deal with that too.

[colinmce]

Speaking of Blakey and Bixing, what is the actual context of this quote which is widely circulated as "the only way the white man can swing is from a rope"? Because I was flabbergasted to read it as "the only way [Paul] Whiteman can swing is from a rope" in a Giddins book. If the latter is the correct quote it's pretty amazing that it was so widely and incorrectly cited the way it was. A real disservice to Bu.

Kind of related, kind of not: there is a terrible book around about Miles and Trane that hilariously, erroneously and insistently claims MD was widely known as "the Chief". At first I was perplexed, then annoyed, but after a while it just became funny.

[jlhoots]

In the end, Grant Green was a neighborhood kind of guy who liked getting high, making records, and playing club dates in the hood. (says JSNGRY)

That's why I'll continue to listen to his music, but almost certainly not have the need to read the book in question.

As for being "accurate", I doubt you'd respect or attend a physician who didn't have his / her facts straight. Apples & oranges but probably appropriate.

[JSngry]

Apples & oranges but probably appropriate.

For making fruit salad, yeah.

[marcello]

Kind of related, kind of not: there is a terrible book around about Miles and Trane that hilariously, erroneously and insistently claims MD was widely known as "the Chief". At first I was perplexed, then annoyed, but after a while it just became funny.

I don't know about that. He was certainly called that by his bandmates from the 70's on.

Here's Al Foster playing his composition THE CHIEF:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xc4NfTc3fS4

PS: jlhoots brings reason to the discussion.

Edited July 4, 2012 by marcello

[Larry Kart]

Speaking of Blakey and Bixing, what is the actual context of this quote which is widely circulated as "the only way the white man can swing is from a rope"? Because I was flabbergasted to read it as "the only way [Paul] Whiteman can swing is from a rope" in a Giddins book. If the latter is the correct quote it's pretty amazing that it was so widely and incorrectly cited the way it was. A real disservice to Bu.

Kind of related, kind of not: there is a terrible book around about Miles and Trane that hilariously, erroneously and insistently claims MD was widely known as "the Chief". At first I was perplexed, then annoyed, but after a while it just became funny.

From Art Taylor's interview with Blakey in "Notes and Tones":

"You should be given credit if the sun comes up and something happens and you’re discovering something. Cats like Beethoven and Bach went through that. They really knew what they were doing. This was their field. The black musician has nothing to do with that. His thing is to swing. Well, the only way the Caucasian musician can swing is from a rope."

FWIW and IMO "The black musician has nothing to do with that" is no less annoying in its implicit and explicit assumptions than "the only way the Caucasian musician can swing is from a rope." For the former, talk to George Lewis, Braxton, Roscoe Mitchell et al. about the fact that the "black musician" can have "to do" with whatever music he can and wishes to have to do with. For the latter, talk to the various Caucasian musicians who were members of Jazz Messengers, from Ira Sullivan on. The list while not endless is extensive.

[colinmce]

Huh, 0-2 on that quote. I should go more in-depth with this pretty strong claim with a new thread, but IMO the level of rigor involved in a lot of jazz writing with regards to fact and accuracy is very poor indeed when compared to rock crit. This is of course a very complicated thing, too, as this thread shows but reading jazz books after a lifetime of reading about rock I was dismayed by the umpteen times I saw the same hearsay fabrications passed off again and again across literally dozens of books.

To Marcello: fair enough, but it's still not something most anybody would immediately associate with Miles, and especially not in the late '50s.

[JSngry]

The best rock book ever is Rock Dreams, and it's (almost) all paintings.

[Larry Kart]

About Blakey and Caucasian musicians only being able to swing from a rope, I forget to mention that Dave Schnitter auditioned in blackface.

[jlhoots]

Apples & oranges but probably appropriate.

For making fruit salad, yeah.

I hope when your having your colonoscopy you'll be thinking about fruit salad.

Hope your doctor isn't.

[JSngry]

Apples & oranges but probably appropriate.

For making fruit salad, yeah.

I hope when your having your colonoscopy you'll be thinking about fruit salad.

Hope your doctor isn't.

I don't know about all that, but I'm pretty sure that the next time I eat fruit salad, I'll not be thinking about the doctor who gave me my colonoscopy, at least not until they get some hot redhead to administer it.

Know anybody in the area?

[jazzbo]

I could say a lot about doctors that I learned during my wife's two year fatal illness, but I'll not go there. I think it's a different situation besides, doctors are not making historical and critical decisions, nor dealing with human memories in the same way.

None the less, I don't necessarily prefer these flawed histories and critiques, but I just expect them and don't waste my time railing against them, because we're going to continue to get them.

[robertoart]

1) there's no such thing as 'piffling minutia'; it is-- or should be-- all part of the architecture.

2) it is impressions lower case: Grant was a highly accomplished mimic and a genuine fan of contemporary comedy and offered friends and nightclub audiences superb deadpan versions of Lenny Bruce, Tom Lehrer, Stan Freberg, Jonathan Winters, Redd Foxx (of course), Moms Mabley (who?), Allan Sherman, Godfrey Cambridge, Bill Cosby, Don Rickles, Richard Pryor-- even Woody Allen!!

3) ideally one can utilize various modes of historical research/writing and come up with a composite structure likely to contain more truths than lies or evasions; unfortunately, most journalists (or fan writers) and most historians are ill-equipped to achieve this though the recent exceptions like John Szwed and Robin D.G. Kelley are highly laudible.

But what complaining about piffling minutia.does is establish a Newtonian hierarchy based on what should be in order TO be. The decisions of the judges are final, unless nobody gives a fuck what they think, in which case there's great fun to be had by just being and not trying to be.. It drives them crazy when you do that, though, as their eminence is no longer even tangentially relevant. They will spend a day telling you what is wrong, but can't muster a few seconds to tell you why it's bad (because it's not bad, that's why, it just didn't go trough the White Filter to get here, and that's a bit forward, doncha know?

This is a very poor post coming from you Ms. Mobley. Not very witty (or pithy) at all. You should post more to get your touch back.

I actually liked Moms post.

Well having read many Moms/Clementine posts over the years, I would expect him to find not a little virtue in a book such as this. Some 'dodgy' architecture notwithstanding. I do however have a soft spot for Stan Freberg - after being first exposed to him via some old footage on Cavett. But I know not of Godfrey Cambridge. Also, having just seen a two part Woody Allen doco, I have to admit to still being a little creeped out about the whole Manhattan/Soon Yi turn. Even after all these years. But I can't imagine a world without 'Zelig'.

[JSngry]

But I know not of Godfrey Cambridge.

Here's a start on remedying that: http://classicshowbiz.blogspot.com/2008/07/godfrey-cambridge-show-live-at-hotel.html#uds-search-results

[robertoart]

But I know not of Godfrey Cambridge.

Here's a start on remedying that: http://classicshowbiz.blogspot.com/2008/07/godfrey-cambridge-show-live-at-hotel.html#uds-search-results

Yeah. I was gonna do it

[AllenLowe]

Larry - I seem to recall you indicating that you had some reservations about the Kelley/Monk book - would you care to elaborate? Unless you did this already somewhere else -

[Larry Kart]

Larry - I seem to recall you indicating that you had some reservations about the Kelley/Monk book - would you care to elaborate? Unless you did this already somewhere else -

Yes I do have some reservations, but no, I don't feel like elaborating right now. Maybe some other time. Nothing dire, though, just that basically I didn't get the feel that Kelley fully grasped the continuing musical power and specialness of Monk's music at its roots. Rather, I felt that Kelley was writing the biography of a Great Black Jazz Artist, so to speak, which is certainly worth doing, but .., well, my ideal biography of, say, Beethoven or Bach would have to build outwards from the still-stunning and seemingly inexhaustible musical implications of their music. BTW, that last thought is in my head because the other night I heard Midori play in concert some of the Bach sonata and partitas for solo violin. It was a reminder that Bach remains, one might say, astonishingly hip. Monk likewise.

[AllenLowe]

good enough.

[JSngry]

Kelley got the facts right but didn't capture the essence.

Ain't no livin' in a perfect world, not except every once in a while.

Oh well!

[cih]

I think I was expecting the Monk book to be more centred on the Great Black Music thing than it was - I mean, because I knew that Kelley had worked with Franklin Rosemont (and he's mentioned in the dedications at the front) I thought it might resemble his own essays on jazz & blues which are very ideological (or they were in the 70s anyway). I thought the Monk book was level headed, I suppose I was after the facts (I read the Leslie Gourse book a few years ago, which now seems like it was about a different person)

Edited July 6, 2012 by cih

[Teasing the Korean]

The best rock book ever is Rock Dreams, and it's (almost) all paintings.

Thanks for reminding me of that horrible book, which I've spent years trying to forget about...

[Big Beat Steve]

The best rock book ever is Rock Dreams, and it's (almost) all paintings.

Thanks for reminding me of that horrible book, which I've spent years trying to forget about...

Why horrible?

Sure the pictures are a bit cliché-laden but IMO they show the essence of many of the artists really quite well in a (single-picture) nutshell. And they do tell a story, particularly to those really in the know. And even as a beginner in rock music I found those illustrations quite fascinating when I got hold of that book in my very early music buying/collecting days at age 15.

Of course many of the scenes shown are of artistically doubtful value as they in fact just boil down to retouchings of photos taken at other times in a totally different context (e.g. the diner scene on the cover). But who among casual browsers would know (or care)?

Edited July 9, 2012 by Big Beat Steve

[JSngry]

[robertoart]

They've certainly 'bixed' a few pounds onto Sir Mick - sitting on the bed in the Stones shot. One thing you can say with certainty about old rubber lips - is he never went through a 'fat Mick' period.

Er...accept in this painting

And what's the story behind the Ray Charles image

[JSngry]

Fantasy. They're all fantasies one way or the other, yet fantasies that play to the popular mythology in some form or fashion by being more or less "true" if not necessarily "accurate"..

Edited July 9, 2012 by JSngry