max roach with Hassaan lp

[Brandon Burke]

Listened to some samples of this on tower.com today. I can already tell I'm gonna LOVE it. Thanks for the info.

[Alexander Hawkins]

I bought this on the strength of this thread and have to say I think it's fantastic - very original, and challenging playing from Hasaan.

[Guest ariceffron]

well you know i could i guess go out and screw w/ ordering it and all but seriously if someone wanted to do a 1 for 1 trade in a few weeks (too busy now) but i have stuff you would dig. i seriously have bootlegs of hank mobley and stuff like that. i have more sun ra lps dubbed to cd than you can shake a stick at and you could hear modern jazz really hardly anyone in the world has heard. you could hear it. i promise i will really mail you your cd promptly after that time is set up thru emailing (ariceffron@yahoo)

[Rooster_Ties]

And would like Atlantic to issue the unreleased second album by Hasaan. This was recorded in August and September 1965 in New York with Odeon Pope, Art Davis and drummer Khalil Madi.

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Has anybody here ever heard this?? (Or ever heard from someone who's heard this??)

All Hasaan originals -- or any standards??

(Paging Chuck.)

[Kalo]

Could not find the Atlantic CD-cover on the net. But this seems the only way to get it these days, anyway.

ubu

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I just got the above reissue from the Dusty Groovers, but haven't had a chance to listen to it yet. Since this is a Collectables reissue, I wasn't surprised that they left a track off of it. Unfortunately, it's the track that was specifically dedicated to Elmo Hope. Damn.

[Stereojack]

And would like Atlantic to issue the unreleased second album by Hasaan. This was recorded in August and September 1965 in New York with Odeon Pope, Art Davis and drummer Khalil Madi.

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Has anybody here ever heard this?? (Or ever heard from someone who's heard this??)

All Hasaan originals -- or any standards??

(Paging Chuck.)

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I suspect that this may be one of the sessions that was lost in the Atlantic warehouse fire.

[Chuck Nessa]

I understand it exists.

I think I said this earlier.

Edited October 24, 2005 by Chuck Nessa

[Kalo]

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Finally listened to this for the first time last night. And I'm playing it for the third time as I post here.

This is right up my alley. I'm hearing affinities with Bud and Elmo, of course, and Monk ("Off My Back Jack" reminds me of "Friday the Thirteenth" but even more obsessive!). But Hasaan definitely has his own thing going on, too. The exchanges with the drums are reminiscent of Herbie Nichols. I also hear similarities to Sun Ra (those wooly chords), and even a bit of Cecil Taylor. I predict that I'll be listening to this one a lot.

[musicmargaret]

The great bassist (and now violinist and published poet) Henry Grimes has a one-hour solo bass CD recorded at the WKCR studios, Columbia University, New York City on June 1st, 2OO3, only about four months after his return to the music world after more than 3O years away. WKCR held a five-day 'round-the-clock Henry Grimes radio festival in celebration, and Henry played and spoke on the air daily. On June 1st, the last day of the radio festival, someone mentioned the Philadelphia pianist known as the Legendary Hassan, a great musician Henry had known and worked with when they were youngsters. The spirit of Hassan Ibn Ali entered and filled Henry's awareness that evening, and when Ben Young asked Henry how he would like to end the broadcast, Henry decided to play a solo in gratitude to all, to express all his feelings at this momentous time in his life, and to honor Hassan Ibn Ali. Henry's hour-long solo was based on a line Hassan showed him and wanted him to learn, as Henry was supposed to record with him and Max Roach, a date that Art Davis ended up playing instead, since Henry for some unremembered reason couldn't make the record date. You can hear Art Davis playing the same line on the piece Hassan named "Three-Four Vs. Six-Eight Four-Four Ways."

(If anyone would like to purchase a copy of Henry's bass solo, please send me an Email: musicmargaret@earthlink.net. It has an original drawing by Henry Grimes on the cover.)

Hassan Ibn Ali is remembered by musicians as someone with such an enormous need to play the piano that he would climb into musicians' windows if he found out they had a piano, go straight to it and start playing, and it would be very difficult to get him to leave, which makes me wonder whether he had a home with no piano, or worse still, no home.

Henry remembers the last time he saw Hassan was at Tadd Dameron's place on the lower East Side of Manhattan rehearsing with a big band.

[Big Wheel]

Wow...listening to this record all the way through for the first time. I definitely hear Monk and also Nichols's rhythmic feel in the right hand, but also shades of Andrew Hill on some of the more out and meditative sections...and even Jaki Byard - in terms of the two-fisted approach to the instrument, letting the left hand provide density.

I don't hear quite so much Hope - but I need to listen harder to Hope; to be honest I've actually found Hope at his most attractive and "honest" when he's playing more conventionally. I know that sounds odd but there it is.

One other thought: Max's best/most interesting work after Bird was all outside conventional bebop playing. It's not an accident that that post-Sonny quintet of Max's eventually ditched the piano entirely. If I were a swinging pianist in the mode of Wynton Kelly, I think playing with Roach in the late 1950s/early 1960s, especially in a trio context, would make me exhausted and miserable. The drums would just overpower everything and hold back any attempt at fluidity. Even a classic like Saxophone Colossus feels to me like Roach is one tiny fraction of a beat away from dragging Tommy Flanagan to the bottom of the ocean when Sonny is laying out.

But if you have a guy who ditches fluidity altogether - Nichols, Monk, Hassan - the herky-jerky feel can stand up to what Max is doing. That kind of piano playing takes some serious muscle.

Edited November 13, 2011 by Big Wheel

[mikeweil]

Wouldn't that be a project for our highly esteemed Mr. Horwich, reissuing the Hassaan LP with the unreleased material as bonus tracks?

[AllenLowe]

just a note - I have the Collectables CD which is a complete botch, sound-wise, just a mess. I just noticed on Amazon (and ordered it) that there is a separate release from WEA, which did the other Atlantics like Mingus and dd a superb job of mastering - it seems to be out of print, so I would suggest snatching it up while you can.

[.:.impossible]

Big Wheel, thoughts on Ellington in trio with Max at the kit?

[Big Wheel]

Big Wheel, thoughts on Ellington in trio with Max at the kit?

The musician circles I used to travel in loved to hate Money Jungle. The first time I heard of it was someone poo-pooing it. Lots about the legendary fighting between Mingus and Roach and how everyone is playing on wildly different parts of the beat (Mingus way behind, Max way in front (I think), Ellington right on the beat).

The things I'm noting on another listen are:

-listen to how much room the ride cymbal takes up. It's almost suffocating on the midtempo tunes.

-On the ballads Max is often laying out. On Solitude when they go into the swing section and Max starts playing, Duke is so forceful starting with the second 8. Maybe I'm overinterpreting this from what I've heard about the legend of this session, but to me it's almost like Duke is saying "goddamn it you bastards, the beat is HERE. RIGHT HERE. I was TRYING for elegance on this thing. Fuck it."

-the UA mixing sounds very different from how most studios recorded piano back then. Duke sounds extremely hot to me here, which is helping the piano cut above the other instruments.

-In a lot of ways, Duke's style works well with what Max is playing. The way Duke is soloing here on most of the cuts is almost how he soloed behind his whole big band. Not really any linear playing, instead lots of rhythmic punching from both hands. I mean, Jesus, the playing on Caravan is HUGE. Duke is slamming the shit out of the lower register in ways that would typically sound muddy and bad. There's one part at the climax of it where it sounds like he's playing a half step away from the intended chord (I'd have to transcribe it but it sounds like maybe he's playing the "wrong" diminished chord here - Cdim instead of C7b9.) It's an inspired harmonic choice, but my sense is also that he has to play stuff like this because building yourself a fortified concrete bunker is the only way to stay alive during Hurricane Max.

[mikeweil]

just a note - I have the Collectables CD which is a complete botch, sound-wise, just a mess. I just noticed on Amazon (and ordered it) that there is a separate release from WEA, which did the other Atlantics like Mingus and dd a superb job of mastering - it seems to be out of print, so I would suggest snatching it up while you can.

I have that WEA reissue - doesn't sound so great ...

-listen to how much room the ride cymbal takes up. It's almost suffocating on the midtempo tunes.

Only for non-drummers

[AllenLowe]

hmmmmn.....now you tell me.....well, I figure most drummers can't hear above 3k anyway -

[AllenLowe]

well, just got the WEA issue of this (which is different than the Collectables) - and have to say, get this before it disappears (it's already out of print) -

sound is fine, I disagree with Mike - this is better than the original LP sounded, so the problem is probably the original recording - also the piano he plays on is not great -

but this is indispensable - even if you, like me, don't like Max's playing post 1960s (to me he's working too hard to sound 'contemporary' and no longer swings).

Edited November 19, 2011 by AllenLowe

[jazztrain]

I made the same move this week. Always meant to explore this session and never did. The WEA issue is next in the to be listened to pile.

well, just got the WEA issue of this (which is different than the Collectables) - and have to say, get this before it disappears (it's already out of print) -

sound is fine, I disagree with Mike - this is better than the original LP sounded, so the problem is probably the original recording - also the piano he plays on is not great -

but this is indispensable - even if you, like me, don't like Max's playing post 1960s (to me he's working too hard to sound 'contemporary' and no longer swings).

[six string]

I love this album (Max w/Hassaan) and I also really dig Hope and Nichols so I really enjoyed reading this thread. Not much to add except