Musicians Whose Playing Has Gotten Better with Age

[jostber]

I would suggest Pee Wee Russell, John Lewis and Martial Solal.

[Chuck Nessa]

"Con-man" Larry? As in, not really a musician at all, just pretending to be one? That's harsh and highly inaccurate if you ask me. To each their own, you don't like his playing, makes no never mind to me. But I do note that you hold against him his own neuroses, rather than pointing out any specific artistic short-comings.

I said "con-man" because in order to do their work con artists typically must pretend to have emotions (i.e. deep concern for those they aim to bilk) that they don't actually have, and there was something about much of Morgan's "comeback" era playing that gave me that feeling -- in particular, that the overtly emotional gestures in his playing seemed to be just that, something separate from rather than the inevitable outgrowth of the musical flow. I should add, though I can't be wholly sure about this, that I think I had this feeling before rather than after after I became aware of the details of Morgan's criminal career.

I'm with Larry on this one.

[marcello]

Me three.

That's show business!

I think that Larry's very lucid explanation says it all.

[Pete C]

I would suggest Pee Wee Russell, John Lewis and Martial Solal.

I'm in total disagreement on Lewis. Love his early bop playing, find everything after mid-50s rather prissy and soporific.

[Brownian Motion]

Buck Clayton became a more adventurous and confident musician around the mid 1940s, and maintained that higher level of play until he injured his embouchure late in his career.

[Pete C]

until he injured his embouchure late in his career.

And then he led a great big band.

When I was a teenager I saw Buck with a small group at a midtown Manhattan creole restaurant called Crawdaddy.

[JSngry]

"Con-man" Larry? As in, not really a musician at all, just pretending to be one? That's harsh and highly inaccurate if you ask me. To each their own, you don't like his playing, makes no never mind to me. But I do note that you hold against him his own neuroses, rather than pointing out any specific artistic short-comings.

I said "con-man" because in order to do their work con artists typically must pretend to have emotions (i.e. deep concern for those they aim to bilk) that they don't actually have, and there was something about much of Morgan's "comeback" era playing that gave me that feeling -- in particular, that the overtly emotional gestures in his playing seemed to be just that, something separate from rather than the inevitable outgrowth of the musical flow. I should add, though I can't be wholly sure about this, that I think I had this feeling before rather than after after I became aware of the details of Morgan's criminal career.

Everybody pretends to have emotions to one degree or another, except those who get overwhelmed by the thought, and then they pretend they don't have them. Eitehr way, there's no judge or jury in the world that can make the right call on that one, and there's so much projection involved in our ascertainment process as to render the whole thing absurdly comical.

I mean, really, there is so much "emotion" in music, great music, even, that is affected and/or there for the purpose of artifice, so much that I'm to the point where I'm fully prepared to be conned at least as often as not, and if it's a good enough con to get over on me, hey, props to you for a job well done.

You can guard your heart, or you can guard your wallet, but its more trouble than its worth to think you can do both at the same time on an ongoing basis.

Now, speaking of con-artist California alto players, Art Pepper's 50s work is exactly that. And it's great playing, although for "honesty's" sake, give me the pest of his 70s work any time. Art Pepper was one fucked-up dude (and hey, aren't we all?), and his 50s playing was all about portraying it otherwise. But if it's "better art" than the more honest work, then hey, Kudos to the Con for again working its magic.

[AllenLowe]

Pete - I saw that gig, too - with Sir Charles Thompson on piano. Sadly, Buck could not get it together. Some time in the 70s.

As for Frank Morgan, Larry is right on the money, IMWO (in my weird opinion) -

and btw, I spent one very nice day with Art Pepper, and he was definitely having "personal" problems - but he was one of the nicest musicians I ever met.

Edited June 19, 2012 by AllenLowe

[Pete C]

Everybody pretends to have emotions to one degree or another, except those who get overwhelmed by the thought, and then they pretend they don't have them. Eitehr way, there's no judge or jury in the world that can make the right call on that one, and there's so much projection involved in our ascertainment process as to render the whole thing absurdly comical.

I mean, really, there is so much "emotion" in music, great music, even, that is affected and/or there for the purpose of artifice, so much that I'm to the point where I'm fully prepared to be conned at least as often as not, and if it's a good enough con to get over on me, hey, props to you for a job well done.

I'm also suspect of the romantic notion of authentic vs. inauthentic emotion in music. As far as I'm concerned, the "emotional dimension" is one of many techniques in music, part of the lexicon, and if it's successful, I don't care if it's coming from the "heart" or the brain. It's like acting: method acting is only one of many approaches.

[JSngry]

Hell, to be a junkie is to be a con, they're inseperable.

You want to hear a con-man at work, listen to that Jackie McLean outtake where he's giving his rhythm section a pep talk, like he's a Really Nice Guy trying to make a Really Good Record. The guy's got his ass on the line and can't afford to fail, period. Nothing "nice" about it. Or for that matter, ask Freddie Redd about Jackie McLean (or so I've often been told)...

But Jackie McLean was indeed a great player, and a con-man. I also think that, con-man or not, Frank Morgan played some beautifulass ballads in the last stage of his life.

Con-man...jeez, that's so obvious as to have no real meaning beyond the obvious.

[AllenLowe]

but....one could make the argument that for great players like Jackie and Art, the one place where they were able to get to a point of honesty was, indeed, in the music. I mean, Bill Evans was the most fucked up guy I ever met. But musically he had order and purpose.

Edited June 19, 2012 by AllenLowe

[Larry Kart]

Hell, to be a junkie is to be a con, they're inseperable.

You want to hear a con-man at work, listen to that Jackie McLean outtake where he's giving his rhythm section a pep talk, like he's a Really Nice Guy trying to make a Really Good Record. The guy's got his ass on the line and can't afford to fail, period. Nothing "nice" about it. Or for that matter, ask Freddie Redd about Jackie McLean (or so I've often been told)...

But Jackie McLean was indeed a great player, and a con-man. I also think that, con-man or not, Frank Morgan played some beautifulass ballads in the last stage of his life.

Con-man...jeez, that's so obvious as to have no real meaning beyond the obvious.

Jackie, Dexter (I had direct experience there), etc. were con-men in their worlds, sure, but IIRC Frank went out and functioned as a con-man in the society at large, charming/scamming old ladies out of their savings, etc.

[JSngry]

Jackie, Dexter (I had direct experience there), etc. were con-men in their worlds, sure, but IIRC Frank went out and functioned as a con-man in the society at large, charming/scamming old ladies out of their savings, etc.

Well, how much more honest than that can you get?

I mean, that's some integrity right there, in it's own way, to actually turn your anti-social tendencies outward and not inward. If not exactly integrity, then at least...industrious. Fuck all this self-loathing, self-pity shit, I want it, I take it. If I get it, I worked for it.

Frank Morgan, BeBop Corporatist!

[jlhoots]

I'm not an insider like Larry, Chuck & Allen - BUT I spent many nights listening to Frank Morgan at The Adobe Bar at The Taos Inn when he was living in Taos.

No cover charge, average local rhythm section, probably shitty pay, nice margaritas.

He always played well, never berated the band & was warm to the audience.

Memorable times for me.

I hope he didn't scam any old ladies in Taos.

The town seemed to love & respect him.

[JETman]

Jackie, Dexter (I had direct experience there), etc. were con-men in their worlds, sure, but IIRC Frank went out and functioned as a con-man in the society at large, charming/scamming old ladies out of their savings, etc.

Well, how much more honest than that can you get?

I mean, that's some integrity right there, in it's own way, to actually turn your anti-social tendencies outward and not inward. If not exactly integrity, then at least...industrious. Fuck all this self-loathing, self-pity shit, I want it, I take it. If I get it, I worked for it.

Frank Morgan, BeBop Corporatist!

Would you feel the same way if your grandma fell victim to his supposed charms?

[Larry Kart]

I'm not an insider like Larry, Chuck & Allen - BUT I spent many nights listening to Frank Morgan at The Adobe Bar at The Taos Inn when he was living in Taos.

No cover charge, average local rhythm section, probably shitty pay, nice margaritas.

He always played well, never berated the band & was warm to the audience.

Memorable times for me.

I hope he didn't scam any old ladies in Taos.

The town seemed to love & respect him.

When was that, JL? Maybe by that time he'd learned a lesson. I learned a fairly big one just last week, at age 70, so there's always hope.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

was he living there? when was that about?

[JSngry]

Jackie, Dexter (I had direct experience there), etc. were con-men in their worlds, sure, but IIRC Frank went out and functioned as a con-man in the society at large, charming/scamming old ladies out of their savings, etc.

Well, how much more honest than that can you get?

I mean, that's some integrity right there, in it's own way, to actually turn your anti-social tendencies outward and not inward. If not exactly integrity, then at least...industrious. Fuck all this self-loathing, self-pity shit, I want it, I take it. If I get it, I worked for it.

Frank Morgan, BeBop Corporatist!

Would you feel the same way if your grandma fell victim to his supposed charms?

Nah, I'd get a crew to go pick him up and bring him back. Then I'd tie him up, slit his throat, and drink his blood straight from his throat. Wouldn't even use a straw.

Good for him my grandma was dead before he made his comeback!

[flat5]

I think it's simplistic to say Harold Land was influenced by John Coltrane.

Harold was always a thinker and a serious responsible man.

His playing became more complex but he never sounded like any Coltrane period.

He did keep up to date.

I'll say it again. I like his earlier tone.

When I first heard his new sound I wondered if he had lost his teeth.

Edited June 19, 2012 by flat5

[jlhoots]

I'm not an insider like Larry, Chuck & Allen - BUT I spent many nights listening to Frank Morgan at The Adobe Bar at The Taos Inn when he was living in Taos.

No cover charge, average local rhythm section, probably shitty pay, nice margaritas.

He always played well, never berated the band & was warm to the audience.

Memorable times for me.

I hope he didn't scam any old ladies in Taos.

The town seemed to love & respect him.

When was that, JL? Maybe by that time he'd learned a lesson. I learned a fairly big one just last week, at age 70, so there's always hope.

Near the end of his career, before he developed cancer & moved back to the midwest. He'd recovered from a stroke & could still play very well. I remember a discussion I had with him about Juan Tizol & Duke Ellington.

[Larry Kart]

I think it's simplistic to say Harold Land was influenced by John Coltrane.

Harold was always a thinker and a serious responsible man.

His playing became more complex but he never sounded like any Coltrane period.

He did keep up to date.

I'll say it again. I like his earlier tone.

When I first heard his new sound I wondered if he had lost his teeth.

If he wasn't influenced to some extent by Coltrane, who or what was he keeping "up to date" with? I mean, back then Trane to a considerable degree was it. Literally thousands of players. including quite a few of Land's vintage (think Frank Foster, for one) have testified to this verbally and in their playing. OTOH, I certainly agree about Land being a thinker, and I too prefer his earlier tone. "Harold in the Land of Jazz" -- yes!

[JSngry]

Keeping up with the implications of Trane's harmonic systems, not aping every aspect of him.

We've been through this before, but "keeping up with" the music itself is nothing to look askance at, especially for players who start out learning and not just playing more or less purely intuitively. Besides being a charismatic spiritual and social figure, John Coltrane was also a deep, profound musical thinker and theoretician. It should be neither surprise nor disappointment that a serious thinker disappointment that a serious thinker such as Land would be compelled to pay attention to and explore in the new territories that Trane was positing. If anything, it would be a surprise and a disappointment if he hadn't have done so. Thinkers gonna think.

I do wonder if he had dental issuesat some point, though, because it does sound as though at some point his embouchure loosened quite a bit, perhaps more than would occur voluntarily.

[jostber]

I would suggest Pee Wee Russell, John Lewis and Martial Solal.

I'm in total disagreement on Lewis. Love his early bop playing, find everything after mid-50s rather prissy and soporific.

I think his later solo piano work like Evolution Vol.1 and Vol.2 is some of the best he ever did.

[fasstrack]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned Jim Hall. Excepting the pedals, which I find distracting and a bow to lesser players---though I know it's a part of adventure, and Jim in his quiet way is a great adventurer). Sometimes he does flatline a bit, but you have to wait him out, it's worth it. He started out as a pretty straight-arrow jazz guitarist, though at a high skill level and with a touch, sound, ears, versatility, a great rhythm man,and great sensitivity that already set him apart. But in his quiet way he steadily deepened the compositional qualities that were there from the beginning (he was a composition major and presented his college thesis--a piece for guitar and chamber strings at Town Hall in 1990, it was recorded on Jim Hall and Friends. I was at the concert FWIW). As a leader he really got daring, orchestral, and more compositional/contrapuntal with Jim Hall Live! (1975). Lots of stretching out there, and it steadily has grown.

But I was reminded of his total maturity yesterday. I purchased a CD called Color and Light, jazz interpretations of Stephen Sondheim. (The 'jazzier' tracks were the least succssful IMO). There were a lot of reputable artists and good music, including a surprise appearance by the composer himself (sneakily fused together with a different performance by Herbie Hancock, to make it seem like a duet. Tsk, tsk and for shame). But the two tracks by Jim, especially the first one (had Kisses in the title)was such a class act, so mature, musical, perfectly arranged and executed, etc.---it just lifted the whole enterprise up several notches.

Edited June 19, 2012 by fasstrack

[flat5]

Thank you, JSngry. You express yourself in writing so much better than I can. You completely got my points about Harold Land.

Did Stéphane Grappelli get better over time. He annoyed me with the constant high harmonic cliche but eventually stopped overusing it (to a degree). He was so good to begin with I have trouble deciding.