Musicians Whose Playing Has Gotten Better with Age

[fasstrack]

Thanks for mentioning Richard Wyands-an ace and a gentleman besides. At 80+ he's holding his own-despite not all that many gigs to go around, and general forgetting in Americorp of our oldest and wisest contributors.

[clifford_thornton]

Ben Webster was another.

A few sub-optimal late life performances aside - and you've got to grant a few - absolutley.

Amen.

Another example, for me, is Burton Greene. His work of the last decade-plus has been simply wonderful.

[Pete C]

I think in the initial post Paul was looking beyond "chops".

In most cases greater depth comes with age and experience.

[brownie]

Steve Kuhn has always been a great musician. Age has been a bonus for his playing. He is a true master by now!

Same goes for Don Friedman. Wish he recorded more these days...

[Mark Stryker]

The four major Detroit pianists -- Hank Jones, Tommy Flanagan, Barry Harris and Roland Hanna -- were terrific early on, but they matured into masters in the their 40s, 50s and beyond. On record the 1970s was an especially great decade for all of them.

I think Elvin Jones and Roy Haynes both got better with age. Buddy Rich, too. I prefer the best of late Art Pepper compared to the best of early Art Pepper, but that's a personal preference and much discussed in other threads. (Related: I prefer early McCoy to later McCoy, but that's not to deny the greatness of later McCoy.)

Branford Marsalis is another one; anyone who still judges him based on his playing from the 1980s and 90s is evaluating a completely different musician than the personal player he has become today. Let's see, who else comes to mind right away? Dexter Gordan grew tremendously of course, peaking in the 1960s and early '70s.

Edited June 17, 2012 by Mark Stryker

[BillF]

The four major Detroit pianists -- Hank Jones, Tommy Flanagan, Barry Harris and Roland Hanna -- were terrific early on, but they matured into masters in the their 40s, 50s and beyond. On record the 1970s was an especially great decade for all of them.

(Related: I prefer early McCoy to later McCoy, but that's not to deny the greatness of later McCoy.)

Pianists again, I note. (See my post above.) I also think Tyner's something of an exception. Perhaps it's because he had so much to live up to after the glory of the Coltrane years.

[Pete C]

(Related: I prefer early McCoy to later McCoy, but that's not to deny the greatness of later McCoy.)

He developed more comprehensive chops, but gave up the adventurousness of his playing and composition of the Milestone period. But while his own work with Trane was great from the beginning, I think his Impulse albums were generally unremarkable.

I saw Roy Hargrove last summer, and I found that he had finally grown into a truly expressive artist (and had put aside most of his silly stage shtick). Plenty of trumpeters had major chops very early on, and then grew into them.

[fasstrack]

Let's not forget that McCoy was introduced to the public-after important apsenticeships ar a prodigy in the very jumping Philly-with the Jazztet. What he had then, besides great rhythm and that harmonic ear (and what he lost or gave up) was a beautiful, restrained touch. The McCoy Tyner of Art Blakey's A Jay Message morphed into something very different. The touch got harder I noticed w/1970's Plays Duke Ellington. But that was still controlled and effective. Soon thereafter along with great development and creative peaks came IMO a lot of banging and unneeded sound and fury. To me it diminished great artistry and a real original talent. You don't have to show power by banging. It's unmusical. I still love McCoy though.

Man, sorry about all the damn typos. Can't fix 'em from a cell phone.

[Peter Friedman]

Let's not forget that McCoy was introduced to the public-after important apsenticeships ar a prodigy in the very jumping Philly-with the Jazztet. What he had then, besides great rhythm and that harmonic ear (and what he lost or gave up) was a beautiful, restrained touch. The McCoy Tyner of Art Blakey's A Jay Message morphed into something very different. The touch got harder I noticed w/1970's Plays Duke Ellington. But that was still controlled and effective. Soon thereafter along with great development and creative peaks came IMO a lot of banging and unneeded sound and fury. To me it diminished great artistry and a real original talent. You don't have to show power by banging. It's unmusical. I still love McCoy though.

I have the same view of McCoy Tyner. The" banging and unneeded sound and fury" was not to my liking.

I especially enjoyed his playing as a sideman in the 1960's with Freddie Hubbard, Joe Henderson, Wayne Shorter, Grant Green, Lee Morgan, Stanley Turrentine, Donald Byrd, Bobby Hutcherson and Hank Mobley.

[Larry Kart]

A minor figure, perhaps, although a quite individual one, but IMO trumpeter Bill Hardman kept getting better and better with age.

[fasstrack]

He's tremendous-so many people like Woody Shaw (who IMO was the last really interesting player) took his innovations and ran with them. The other modal school players were mostly horn players (except Bill Evans-who also got more aggressive but never lost control of his touch). Andrew Hill was also innovative and fresh but fell in the cracks career-wise).That thunderous energy is part of what makes him exciting, but it would be as exciting w/o the sturm, drang, and noise. That said, I wish this great force of nature the best in health, spirit, and hapiness this Father's Day. And Quincy Troupe shouldn't have gotten away with trying to pass off as journalism repeating Miles's mean bitchery re Tyner and others in the bullshit 'book' Miles and Me. Constructive criticism while ackowledging artistic accomplishment must never be confused with such disgraceful pandering for bucks.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

A minor figure, perhaps, although a quite individual one, but IMO trumpeter Bill Hardman kept getting better and better with age.

Yes.

A lot of tenor players. Arnett Cobb; Illinois Jacquet; Jug (though he was only 48 when he died, so does the sixties and seventies stuff count as being aged?); Jimmy Forrest; Willis Jackson; not sure about Jaws, but definitely Griff.

Dr LOnnie SMith; Gene Ludwig; Wild Bill Davis; Big JOhn Patton.

Lionel Hampton; Milt Jackson.

MG

Oh, about Teddy Edwards - I'm not sure he ever got old Or David Newman.

[fasstrack]

I don't like this 'minor' appellation so much, Larry. I understand, but there are so many ways to contribute and influence. And soldiers carry on when the leaders burn out or die-important in itself. What made Hardman better IMO was when he dug stuff ou t of himself more and stopped copying Lee Morgan (you can really hear that copying on Blakey's Night in Tunisia-right alongside some nice ideas starting to coagulate).

[Pete C]

not sure about Jaws,

To my ears his sound and approach was pretty steady from the '60s onward (with maybe some more subtlety coming in his ballad playing), but he was already a monster on those early sides with Fats Navarro.

Woody Shaw (who IMO was the last really interesting player)

He seems to have made major strides very quickly from the Dolphy date in 1963 to Larry Young's Unity in '65, where his sound is already starting to emerge from the shadow of Hubbard.

What made Hardman better IMO was when he dug stuff ou t of himself more and stopped copying Lee Morgan (you can really hear that copying on Blakey's Night in Tunisia-right alongside some nice ideas starting to coagulate).

Not sure one could really safely say any trumpeter was emulating Lee Morgan that early in Morgan's career. Don't you think there might have just been similar influences on both of their early sounds?

Edited June 17, 2012 by Pete C

[clifford_thornton]

Let's not forget that McCoy was introduced to the public-after important apsenticeships ar a prodigy in the very jumping Philly-with the Jazztet. What he had then, besides great rhythm and that harmonic ear (and what he lost or gave up) was a beautiful, restrained touch. The McCoy Tyner of Art Blakey's A Jay Message morphed into something very different. The touch got harder I noticed w/1970's Plays Duke Ellington. But that was still controlled and effective. Soon thereafter along with great development and creative peaks came IMO a lot of banging and unneeded sound and fury. To me it diminished great artistry and a real original talent. You don't have to show power by banging. It's unmusical. I still love McCoy though.

Man, sorry about all the damn typos. Can't fix 'em from a cell phone.

Plays Ellington was from '65 - it's a favorite of my Dad's. McCoy's touch seemed pretty tough and insistent on the Blakey date you mention; it's a Bu LP that I return to fairly often.

He's a furious player, sure, but at his best not without lyricism. I do know what you mean about the "chunkier" style as a post-Coltrane thing, but I imagine its gestation was a long time coming.

[fasstrack]

I think some keys to Woody might be: 1. he played in part a saxophone conept on trumpet, and hanging w/Dolphy esp. while so young opened his ears in so many ways, not the least being those wide intervals. The 4th and pentatonic stuff was sort of in the air then. A classic case of great minds thinking alike, and he mined the gold according to his needs and ears. But he also delved deep into 20th century harmony. Then there's the Eastern and African influence, esp. of Trane (McCoy too). But he had a beautiful sound, esp. on flugelhorn, and that's when I like him best-more than the chord 'stacking' to make something happen over a few changes or playing these great devices he created into the ground or in a forced way. To me my main problem w/the big names of the 60s was an obsessive quality. Trane was great, but after that 1st amazing wave it didn't have the intuitive, singing, inevitable quality of Pres or Bird. Different goals maybe-but anyway, geez what amazing results...

[PHILLYQ]

Not jazz, but Jeff Beck somehow keeps getting better.

[Larry Kart]

I don't like this 'minor' appellation so much, Larry. I understand, but there are so many ways to contribute and influence. And soldiers carry on when the leaders burn out or die-important in itself. What made Hardman better IMO was when he dug stuff ou t of himself more and stopped copying Lee Morgan (you can really hear that copying on Blakey's Night in Tunisia-right alongside some nice ideas starting to coagulate).

I don't like the appellation either, Joel. I dug Hardman from the first time I heard him (on "Jackie McLean and Co." I think -- a date that turned me inside out) but I said "minor" I guess because I was thinking of his relative impact on the course of the music and other players. By those standards, Gene Shaw also would be a minor player, but quality and individuality count for a lot for both men.

[fasstrack]

The only reason it's a drag is that it's so Old Testament, you know? Judgement day every day. I'm not even saying it's not true...

[Pete C]

The only reason it's a drag is that it's so Old Testament, you know? Judgement day every day. I'm not even saying it's not true...

If I had position on the judgment day...

[fasstrack]

The mind boggles...

[AllenLowe]

it's funny but I don't think my own playing settled until I took up the alto at around age 50. I'm a much better player now - and actually I think it has to do with poor small motor skills and the easier grip of the smaller horn. No kidding.

btw, I think Hank Jones was a better player in the 50s and early 60s - his playing had a Nat Cole-ish bounce and crispness that got flattened out later on.

Edited June 18, 2012 by AllenLowe

[Pete C]

btw, I think Hank Jones was a better player in the 50s and early 60s - his playing had a Nat Cole-ish bounce and crispness that got flattened out later on.

Not sure what you mean by flattened, but his earlier playing certainly had more swing elements. Not only Cole but lots of Teddy Wilson, which he always kept in his touch.

[CJ Shearn]

I personally feel Chick Corea is doing some of the best playing in these past 5-10 years or so of his career. "Forever" the acoustic RTF stuff, and the trio with Gomez and Motian were very very creative efforts. Paul Motian until his death was playing great, Pat Metheny is refining his style and his compositions are stronger and stronger, "Unity Band" is his best straight ahead effort in years. Joey DeFrancesco has become a more thoughtful player since JOS died, although I don't think (I haven't heard his last two) his albums have reached the peaks of "Organic Vibes" or "The Authorized Bootleg". Jack DeJohnette is still great, his taste and melodic thinking is better and better as is Steve Gadd. Michael Brecker's playing before his death was entering a new phase. On "Wide Angles" and "Pilgrimage", he was really pushing himself, finding fresher ideas beyond the usual Breckerisms. Actually to my ear, there are hardly any patented Breckerisms on his final album (there are a few) he was really in amazing form playing past his illness and finding new ideas. I agree on Branford definitely.

[AllenLowe]

by flattened out I mean his sound had less resonance, was more even in touch -