Toshiba Japan Blue Note LT Series Reissues

[jazzbo]

I like Knucklebean and the recordings around them. Hutcherson has a way of making almost any material interesting. It's not the same music as earlier 'sixties Hutcherson, more electric and funky, but great stuff.

[skeith]

THanks Lon and JAW!

[J.A.W.]

I'm now listening to the album on the 3rd CD of the Hutcherson Mosaic Select. Funky and electric indeed. Unfortunately, the Select sounds a bit loud to my ears.

Personnel:

Freddie Hubbard - trumpet

Manny Boyd - soprano and tenor saxophones, flute

Hadley Caliman - tenor saxophone, flute

Bobby Hutcherson - vibraphone, marimba

George Cables - piano, electric piano

James Leary III - bass

Eddie Marshall - drums

Edited March 11, 2013 by J.A.W.

[J.A.W.]

To sum up: it's not an album I'll be playing often. Your mileage may vary.

[sidewinder]

Recommendation for 'Knucklebean' from me. It smokes.

[JSngry]

Knucklebean works for me too, especially in comparison to its predecessors, The View From The Inside & Waiting, neither of which really come close to gelling, imo. Bobby was not being, shall we say, "well-served" by the label in those days. At least not that I can tell.

[felser]

I like it. I like almost everything Hutcherson did on Blue Note during that period, and I can't say that about any other artists signed to the label during that time. The Horace Silver ("Silver 'n" series), Lou Donaldson, and of course Donald Byrd stuff from then I find dreadful.

[skeith]

Thanks Sidewinder, JSngry, felser.... I guess I am going to purchase Knucklebean

[jazzbo]

Though it still seems on backorder, the material in the Mosaic Select is good Hutcherson and worth considering . . . Knuclebean and four more.

[skeith]

Though it still seems on backorder, the material in the Mosaic Select is good Hutcherson and worth considering . . . Knuclebean and four more.

Thanks Lon.... I keep forgetting that.

[Clunky]

This thread had me looking out Smith's "Cool Blues". I've always liked this set and not really a huge JS fan. My edition is the 1990 CD RVG which was IIRC the first CD issue. I recall some issue with pitch problems mentioned in the past. The sound to my ears is a little thin. How's the LT or the newer RVG series by comparison ?

[jazzbo]

Better. The new LT is quite nice, I think you'd enjoy the improvement.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

This thread had me looking out Smith's "Cool Blues". I've always liked this set and not really a huge JS fan. My edition is the 1990 CD RVG which was IIRC the first CD issue. I recall some issue with pitch problems mentioned in the past. The sound to my ears is a little thin. How's the LT or the newer RVG series by comparison ?

I guess you missed my comments about this CD earlier in this thread?

[jazzbo]

Kevin, the RVG may sound better to you now because of equipment changes rather than hearing loss. I do understand the complaints that people have with RVG cd masterings but as my system has improved (and I think in my case it has been power conditioning that has made a really big impact) these sound better and better. And as I have three gain stages to adjust and "ride the gain" (DAC/preamp, tube preamp, input gain on my tube amp) I can actually tailor the sound to favor the RVGs and maximize the dynamics and minimize the sizzle. Yes, you can't really crank them up high, but I don't listen to jazz that way, there's a sort of 'right volume' for these sort of recordings where they seem realistic and I can get RVGs at this volume and really enjoy them, in fact they sound more natural to me, more like jazz heard in a small club or a studio than some other versions.

That said, the LT series discs sound really really good to me and I'm so glad they did these albums as they did, they sound great, they are nice to have on cd for the first time or as alternatives to being a part of a Mosaic, and the price is right. Thank you Toshiba!

[erwbol]

I undertand this has been discussed to death on the internet, but ...

As someone who started seriously collecting jazz just before the introduction of the RVG series I feel quite some resentment towards Rudy van Gelder when I think about the amount of time and money I wasted on a lot of his subpar remasterings. Some I think are just fine or even very good, but surely most are messed up. They bothered me from the start, but I initially doubted my own audio equipment instead.

A retirement home for both that man and his remasters, please.

Edited March 15, 2013 by erwbol

[J.A.W.]

I undertand this has been discussed to death on the internet, but ...

As someone who started seriously collecting jazz just before the introduction of the RVG series I feel quite some resentment towards Rudy van Gelder when I think about the amount of time and money I wasted on a lot of his subpar remasterings. Some I think are just fine or even very good, but surely most are messed up. They bothered me from the start, but I initially doubted my own audio equipment instead.

A retirement home for that man, please.

Careful, there are many RVG fans on this board

He's 88 and, unless I missed something, I don't think he's mastering anything anymore.

Edited March 15, 2013 by J.A.W.

[jazzbo]

I'm more of a fan of the recording than the remastering, but I really enjoy the RVG series for the money. Cheaper than the Blue Note works and I like the vividness of the sound more, it's more real to me on my system. Again, I've put together a flexible system which allows me to listen to a wider range of recordings with pleasure than before. I don't want to be avoiding releases in general or seeking out always some counsel on the sound. In the last five years or so I've been able to buy almost any release and relax into the sound. That sure is nice.

Anyone heard the two Ronnie Laws in the Toshiba reissues? I actually like these, played them a lot in the 'seventies and 'eighties, and my lps are not in great shape. Trying to decide whether to get new lps or the new cds. . . .

[Clunky]

This thread had me looking out Smith's "Cool Blues". I've always liked this set and not really a huge JS fan. My edition is the 1990 CD RVG which was IIRC the first CD issue. I recall some issue with pitch problems mentioned in the past. The sound to my ears is a little thin. How's the LT or the newer RVG series by comparison ?

I guess you missed my comments about this CD earlier in this thread?

Sorry I should have been clearer. I was wondering if my old 1990 version was worth upgrading to either the RVG or the LT. AS it is it he LT is on the way with Infinity and Et cetera from CDjapan. -

[paul secor]

I undertand this has been discussed to death on the internet, but ...

As someone who started seriously collecting jazz just before the introduction of the RVG series I feel quite some resentment towards Rudy van Gelder when I think about the amount of time and money I wasted on a lot of his subpar remasterings. Some I think are just fine or even very good, but surely most are messed up. They bothered me from the start, but I initially doubted my own audio equipment instead.

A retirement home for both that man and his remasters, please.

How about naming some names? I'd be interested in which ones you like, and which you don't.

Edited March 15, 2013 by paul secor

[Kevin Bresnahan]

This thread had me looking out Smith's "Cool Blues". I've always liked this set and not really a huge JS fan. My edition is the 1990 CD RVG which was IIRC the first CD issue. I recall some issue with pitch problems mentioned in the past. The sound to my ears is a little thin. How's the LT or the newer RVG series by comparison ?

I guess you missed my comments about this CD earlier in this thread?

Sorry I should have been clearer. I was wondering if my old 1990 version was worth upgrading to either the RVG or the LT. AS it is it he LT is on the way with Infinity and Et cetera from CDjapan. -

Oh. Well, when the RVG CD came out, I compared it to the original Ron McMaster CD and quite comfortably kept the RVG CD. It sounded a lot better than the old McMaster CD, which has to be noted has a pitch problem. I thought it sounded much better.

[erwbol]

I undertand this has been discussed to death on the internet, but ...

As someone who started seriously collecting jazz just before the introduction of the RVG series I feel quite some resentment towards Rudy van Gelder when I think about the amount of time and money I wasted on a lot of his subpar remasterings. Some I think are just fine or even very good, but surely most are messed up. They bothered me from the start, but I initially doubted my own audio equipment instead.

A retirement home for both that man and his remasters, please.

How about naming some names - which ones you like, and which you don't. I'd be interested.

I currently listen on Sennheiser HD 650 headphones only so as not to get into trouble with the neighbours. This perhaps might make things more apparent and intollerable.

The ones I truly like are some of the usual suspects like Monk's Genius of Modern Music. I also enjoy Cecil Taylor's Conquistador, Freddie Hubbard's Here to Stay, and some others.

Some specific issues of RVGs I have problems with (and consequently no longer own):

* On Art Blakey's Mosaic Wayne Shorter sounds like he is blowing through a layer of crepe paper on the title track.

* Where's the bass on the first track of Andrew Hill's Point of Departure? Compare that to Refuge on the Mosaic box.

* The high volume levels on the RVG of Hank Mobley's Another Workout make things sound more distorted and now also tiring than on the previous CD release.

* Excess bass or low end on Andrew Hill's Black Fire. Tiring.

* Dolphy's Five Spot Recordings. There are passages where the trumpet sounds unnatural compared to other releases I think.

And what's with the near mono fetish? That shouldn't be a first choice for regular releases.

[paul secor]

I undertand this has been discussed to death on the internet, but ...

As someone who started seriously collecting jazz just before the introduction of the RVG series I feel quite some resentment towards Rudy van Gelder when I think about the amount of time and money I wasted on a lot of his subpar remasterings. Some I think are just fine or even very good, but surely most are messed up. They bothered me from the start, but I initially doubted my own audio equipment instead.

A retirement home for both that man and his remasters, please.

How about naming some names - which ones you like, and which you don't. I'd be interested.

I currently listen on Sennheiser HD 650 headphones only so as not to get into trouble with the neighbours. This perhaps might make things more apparent and intollerable.

The ones I truly like are some of the usual suspects like Monk's Genius of Modern Music. I also enjoy Cecil Taylor's Conquistador, Freddie Hubbard's Here to Stay, and some others.

Some specific issues of RVGs I have problems with (and consequently no longer own):

* On Art Blakey's Mosaic Wayne Shorter sounds like he is blowing through a layer of crepe paper on the title track.

* Where's the bass on the first track of Andrew Hill's Point of Departure? Compare that to Refuge on the Mosaic box.

* The high volume levels on the RVG of Hank Mobley's Another Workout make things sound more distorted and now also tiring than on the previous CD release.

* Excess bass or low end on Andrew Hill's Black Fire. Tiring.

* Dolphy's Five Spot Recordings. There are passages where the trumpet sounds unnatural compared to other releases I think.

And what's with the near mono fetish? That shouldn't be a first choice for regular releases.

Thanks for responding. I'll do some relistening to the ones I have.

[CJ Shearn]

Well, my thoughts on RVG releases years later, first of all, I agree with Lon that probably equipment changes enhance the sound. I do not have fancy equipment, but there are plugins the exist (like Audiophile X) if you use your computer as a stereo for CD's which can help you adjust the sound you like. Second, the RVG series for me was a way to get titles I did not own previously inexpensively, and it titles that were rather hard to find like the Grachan Moncur albums, the Willette albums, "Roll Call", etc that I was able to obtain easily after their release in the RVG series. Third, I ran many RVG's through the TT dynamic range tool, and many of them are not as compressed as people here and at the Hoffman forums seem to think. Mastered louder? strange EQ choices? Yes, but not squashed like Coldplay's albums, or for jazz, the most recent Kenny Garrett. Waveforms do not tell the whole story. Many RVG's and McMasters (both early like "Out to Lunch", and later McMasters) out of a scale of 20 rate at 12 for the majority. Also, after hearing a sample of an original Blue Note 47 W. 63rd DG, RVG CD's are meant to mimic the sound of original pressings, I think. Also, despite being sonically superior, because I have the RVG's and know the music, it makes spending $17.98 at HDTracks for titles I already own on disc, hard to take. I have over a hundred Blue Note RVG's.

RVG's I think sound wonderful: the Monk volumes, the Davis volumes, Birdland Blakey's, the "Cafe Bohemia" albums, Horace Silver "The Stylings of Silver", "The Sermon", "Houseparty", "Midnight Special","Back at the Chicken Shack", "Plays Fats Waller" (JRVG), "A Night at the Village Vanguard", "Grantstand"

RVG's I didn't like "Out to Lunch" (bought the McMaster), "Prayer Meetin" (gotta put the treble and bass way down and wish I kept the old CD) "Empyrean Isles" has strange EQ'ing, mostly mids, but I love the album so much that if HDTracks makes it available I will upgrade. I also like the RVG series package design.

[king ubu]

To me, Jackie McLean's "Capuchin Swing" must be the worst ... and I'm generally not even interested in discussing all the audio/sonics stuff, but that one I hardly can stand. I kept plenty of old McMasters anyway (also the ones of "Prayer Meeting" and the Blakey Bohemias).

Never had an issue with "Out to Lunch" (had the McMaster before).

One I don't like either is Jimmy Smith's "Cool Blues" - fine music, but the sound bothers me. No clue if it's the remastering or the original (location) recording, I've never had any other edition of that one.

[David Ayers]

The argument FOR the RVG series is that it achieved a relaunch of the label that a simple 'newly remastered' sticker would not have done.The argument against may be that a lot of those RVGs made the music much less appealing, brought no life to it. I know some people have equipment that sorts this out, and I know that many of us here are fussy, but beyond the membership of this board I think this music was not done the best service in terms of keeping it alive. And yes Capuchin Swing was one of the worst. I was grateful for some, don't get me wrong, like the 50s titles which were an improvement, and it was great that the series relaunched so many titles. It's just that looking back now at 'what have we got' it isn't what it could have been.

Edited March 20, 2013 by David Ayers