book review on Nica de Koenigswarter(and monk)

[alocispepraluger102]

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Edited June 10, 2012 by alocispepraluger102

[fasstrack]

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You have:[url=h That's IT. At least at my end. Did you mean to talk about Hannah Rothschild's book? Can't get it Stateside yet-save for Kindle, and I never touch the stuff. She's worth waiting for though, a damn good writer. The DVD she did (Jazz Baroness, I think) is wonderful. It's up on youtube free but I want to buy it like a mensch, not steal it. Nica's really having her posthumous day, eh? 3 books if you include Kelley's masterful Monk bio and a DVD. I met her and was at the house. Barry Harris is still there. I fear Hannah (and Mr. Kastin too) got on the wrong side of Barry and Nica's daughters-and what a waste of the 2 best resources. Still way worth it. The Nica I wish I knew has returned so we can have a 2nd look. I know we wont treat her 'high hat' like that bastard racist power hoarder Walter Winchell did.

[Larry Kart]

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[J.A.W.]

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There must be some hidden message in there that only pepsi drinkers can see...

[robertoart]

Is/was the hagiographic recognition of the 'Baroness" a universal thing in the 'Jazz' world of the time? There seems to be a lot of issues that her money and presence seem to raise. Does Robin Kelley expand on this at all in his Monk book perhaps?

[JSngry]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/apr/22/hannah-rothschild-nica-jazz-thelonious-monk-interview

[Larry Kart]

Freelancer -- Forum rules prohibit the quoting in full of copyrighted material. Here is a link to the Stanley Crouch review of Kastin's book that you quoted in your post on this thread, which I deleted because of that forum rule:

http://bnreview.barnesandnoble.com/t5/Reviews-Essays/Nica-s-Dream/ba-p/5197

[fasstrack]

Good review by Stanley. I wish he would be as terse and un-showoffy in his own work. I like his News column best, and he tailors his prose accordingly. That's what a pro does. In other news I would add that Kastin is better at gathering and presenting historical data than making his subject here come alive-a shame since she sure seemed lively as hell to me. Stanley also didn't ask the obvious pressing question that I've already beaten to death in these Nica threads: why no offspring interviews? Why no Barry Harris? I've not a stitch against Joel Forrester, I like him and his music-and he WAS her friend. But Barry has lived at that house longer actually than Monk-and his feelings for Monk and Nica run very strong and deep. Maybe he bowed out of all 3 projects to protect her privacy. Instead of me repeating myself I am going to ask him since we are in touch. But I am going to watch over HIS privacy and ask if it's cool to go pubic. And I guess I should also not assume this is as important to others here as me.

[fasstrack]

He definitely won't be going PUBIC. Let's split the difference with PUBLIC. '....'(what Puck's last line was).

[robertoart]

Well it is an important story insofar as so many issues surrounding jazz history and social conditions seem to arise around her presence.

It seems Amiri Baraka has strong words to say about this. So it's definitely a story that has many angles.

My link

Edited June 11, 2012 by freelancer

[fasstrack]

Will comment after talking to Barry. Meanwhile, I'm very gratified to see Nica get the props-whatever the angle. We know about her support of Monk, Horace, et al. But by bankrolling the Jazz Cultural Theater (which I didn't know until Kastin's book-the investors I knew about were Larry Ridley and Frank Fuentes, possibly Jim Harrison) she made it possible for young musicians like myself, Rodney Kendrick, Kim Clarke, Sue Terry, many others to learn jazz the best way: the oral and bandstand tradition with the older cats. Then there was Barry, his class, and everything else he's about-including BTW going to Europe to work then coming back to empty his pockets paying the gig salaries for C. Sharpe, Junior Cook, Chris Anderson-on and on. The story of Nica and all she touched is a moving study of generosity. It should be placed in the bin with inspirational products IMO.

[robertoart]

So, some divergent thoughts from the book.

My link

here is a snippet from another review;

‘Search’ is also an important word in this subtitle: the ‘real’ Nica inevitably eludes the biographer, even a family-based one, remaining an enigma about whom Amiri Baraka can say: ‘She was a wealthy dilettante and a groupie. That is the kindest thing I could say …’ while Archie Shepp says: ‘She was a woman who was ahead of her time. She took a stand when it wasn’t popular to do so … she impressed my whole community with a sense of democracy’ and Curtis Fuller remembers: ‘She was our pride and she was our light; she gave us a light because she had status.’

[fasstrack]

Oh, that naughty Amiri... (; It's funny how Stan-uh-ley and he are in separate constellations politically but share a genius for bad boy behavior that keeps fanning the notoriety flames ad nauseum. I would bet any money that Baraka's probably something like a sweetheart when you meet him-as one board member has attested to. Shh...don't lets blow his cover (; I always loved that crazy MF's writing-even when I hated it. He's burnin', and no pansy. I also fully embrace Black Nationalism. Especially now that it's over (;

[Pete C]

It seems Amiri Baraka has strong words to say about this.

But, as is often the case, not interesting ones. Poor Amiri may have to add Shepp to his schitt list. By the way, did Baraka drop the Imamu from his name because he learned that it was presumptuous to take on such an honorific as soon as one changes religions?

Edited June 11, 2012 by Pete C

[fasstrack]

I keep coming back to the tortured but endlessly fascinating theme of the Jewish-Afro symbiosis. Not only is Baraka awash in (and making a beautiful dollar from) it, the (potential for) accusational ammunition is tremendous-tiresome and BS though it be. In NY the Vanguard, the Blue Note (top-tier) and Smalls and Fat Cat (lower in the food chain but way more innovative, esp. Fat Cat)-all Jewish owned. From where I sit I regard Mitch Borden of Smalls and Noah Sipal of Fat Cat as real visionaries and supporters of the artist. But I always detected generally a desire among certain (esp. middle-class) Jews, perhaps in rebellion against a somewhat cloistered culture, a hero-worship of the black man and his culture-esp. in sports and music. The reasons are many and far-reaching-and worthy of sociological survey. The danger is in celebrating anything-regardless of quality-black. It opens the door for all manner of bad things-but mostly is an insult to any thinking black-whose sensibility would be rightfully offended

[Larry Kart]

Did Baraka have anything to say about Nica other than that snippet? I'm curious because I get the feeling that he didn't know her/get to observe her much if at all but simply slotted her into one of his pre-existing categories of execration. If so, not a particularly nice/smart thing to do, albeit an economical manuever -- you've got to leave open as many brain cells as possible for really important stuff. Further, from what I know about Nica (no direct contact on my part, though) she was as close to a one-off as could be, not a standard or even non-standard jazz groupie or dilletante of the sort that the young Baraka would have been familiar with or even have slept with (as one of his transitional poems of enraged self-disgust (quoted by me on an earlier thread) goes into much detail.

[fasstrack]

...by being treated as a demi-god prima facia (sp?). Every reasonable person just wants to be accepted for him or herself. The other danger is the feeding at the Jewish self-deprecation trough-where the water runs miles deep. This has nothing to do w/Nica, and Baraka is little more than a puckish flame-thrower here. But I hope this spurs further discussion. I think the topic important and one not to shrink from. I should mention some black-run jazz orgs. doing great work and quietly: in Brooklyn Sistah's Place; the Senior Center at 968 Fulton-and a cultural center in Jamaica. God bless the child that got its own...

[brownie]

Well it is an important story insofar as so many issues surrounding jazz history and social conditions seem to arise around her presence.

It seems Amiri Baraka has strong words to say about this. So it's definitely a story that has many angles.

My link

Don't know who the lady with Miles and Bechet in the Max Jones-Credited photo is but it sure is not our Nica!

Our Nica was 36 when the photo was taken at the 1949 Paris jazz festival!

[robertoart]

Did Baraka have anything to say about Nica other than that snippet?

I believe he possibly did. There is the jazz baroness website:

My link

It has links to what I assume are longer interviews with people featured in the documentary.

Alas, either my browser will not open them, or the streaming video is down.

It is interesting though, that Hannah Rothschild did not include the 'dilettante' quote in the doco, but has included it in the book. In the documentary, Baraka talks of visiting Monk at The Cathouse, so his opinion is not made at a distance as it were. I find it important to this story, because it clashes quite markedly with the very righteous things Rollins, Shepp and Curtis Fuller say. As well as those of Thelonious's son. Still, it suggests that the Baroness's presence was not universally appreciated by the Black jazz community perhaps. Is this possibly why Sonny Rollins has chosen to speak out with such obvious respect when he states otherwise that he normally refrains from public comment with regard to others. I am not familiar enough with Baraka's writings to know if he has written about the Nica/Jazz connection before.

...by being treated as a demi-god prima facia (sp?). Every reasonable person just wants to be accepted for him or herself. The other danger is the feeding at the Jewish self-deprecation trough-where the water runs miles deep. This has nothing to do w/Nica, and Baraka is little more than a puckish flame-thrower here. But I hope this spurs further discussion. I think the topic important and one not to shrink from. I should mention some black-run jazz orgs. doing great work and quietly: in Brooklyn Sistah's Place; the Senior Center at 968 Fulton-and a cultural center in Jamaica. God bless the child that got its own...

Yeah. Got its own funding

Edited June 11, 2012 by freelancer

[fasstrack]

Money talks, Air Jordans walk (;

[robertoart]

Did Baraka have anything to say about Nica other than that snippet? I'm curious because I get the feeling that he didn't know her/get to observe her much if at all but simply slotted her into one of his pre-existing categories of execration. If so, not a particularly nice/smart thing to do, albeit an economical manuever -- you've got to leave open as many brain cells as possible for really important stuff. Further, from what I know about Nica (no direct contact on my part, though) she was as close to a one-off as could be, not a standard or even non-standard jazz groupie or dilletante of the sort that the young Baraka would have been familiar with or even have slept with (as one of his transitional poems of enraged self-disgust (quoted by me on an earlier thread) goes into much detail.

Well these are obviously the first (and important) things you think about when you read his quote - in understanding that he probably wasn't one of the Baronesses inner circle. I find the second part of his quote, where he talks about Nica, "that she … had the wherewithal to be where she wanted to be and do what she wanted to do", more worthy of following up - but it doesn't seem to be elaborated on. I guess his larger point may have been there is a certain gaucheness to her behaviours in the context of where she inserted herself socially. That story from earlier, about her parking the Bentley on the curb, and the insinuation that she took ownership for the marketing and presentation of artists music, is perhaps more illuminating, depending on how you look at things.

Edited June 12, 2012 by freelancer

[AllenLowe]

from people who knew her, the Bentley parklng thing (which I witnessed once or twice) was just her spaciness. Baraka is full of shit; she was obviously a fine and sincere lady.

Edited June 12, 2012 by AllenLowe

[fasstrack]

Is/was the hagiographic recognition of the 'Baroness" a universal thing in the 'Jazz' world of the time? There seems to be a lot of issues that her money and presence seem to raise.

Among musicians there is nothing but genuine respect/affection due to to Nica's very real and often risky generosity-no 'hagiography'. The jazz press maybe deifys her a bit. Except for the always-tactful Amiri Baraka, who called her a 'dilettente' and 'groupie'. We all know he has, um, issues. The good news: w/these new books/DVD the public can make more informed conclusions on Nica now.