Politics and Jazz

[sashimi-jazz]

I noted that some members have expressed concern about political subjects being raised in these forums. Whats wrong with being political? Isn't politics about how we see our society being run?

Given the history of jazz how can it not be political. Name one great jazz musician that wasn't subtly or overtly making a political statement in his music. Weren't Mingus, Ellington, Parker, Gillespie and Monk (and most bop musicians) making statements about the role of african-americans in society and their role in jazz. Isn't playing and listening to jazz a political statement when there are so many other forms of music to listen to.

Every black musician who got up and played jazz was making a political statement and every white musician who played it was making a political as well as an artistic choice. Every young white kid who listened to and appreciated jazz was making a political statement when I was growing up. Its making a statement about who you are and what you feel - and in todays American and European societies thats political.

Maybe a problem with jazz today is that too many of its practitioners have become 'artists' and see their art as being isolated from the problems of society - thats why so much interesting jazz and related music is coming from Europeans, Africans and South Americans who have something to say about who they are and what they feel.

Hooray for politics - and a double hooray for politics in art and jazz.

[7/4]

Sometimes a cigar is really just a cigar.

Edited January 23, 2004 by 7/4

[connoisseur series500]

Is it political statement or artistic statement?

I feel it is more the latter.

I look at art as expressing the relationship of man with other men and with the cosmos. Politics is by nature ephemeral. Certainly not a suitable subject for art in general.

But 7/4 answered it best. It's just a cigar.

Edited January 23, 2004 by connoisseur series500

[brownie]

Sometimes a cigar is really just a cigar.

Yes, but from Hanava?

[Jim Alfredson]

For those who do not want to mix politics and jazz, you can sign up to ignore the Political Forum.

See this thread for more details.

[Dan Gould]

I think Sashimi is confusing separate issues:

The general question of whether political discussion is appropriate in a jazz forum

vs

the nexus between art and politics

Personally, I'm just glad that he hasn't gotten going that "Republicans are racist; Jazz is predominantly a creation of African-Americans; therefore Republicans who like jazz are hypocrites."

That not-so-merry go round is reserved for Johnny.

[Son-of-a-Weizen]

For those who do not want to mix politics and jazz, you can sign up to ignore the Political Forum.

For those who do not want to mix politics and jazz, you can sign up to ignore the Political Forum or the DEEP OLIVE BRANCH TO CHRISTIERN thread.

[connoisseur series500]

Personally, I'm just glad that he hasn't gotten going that "Republicans are racist; Jazz is predominantly a creation of African-Americans; therefore Republicans who like jazz are hypocrites."

That not-so-merry go round is reserved for Johnny.

or Minew.

[patricia]

I've always felt that art, whether it's painting, literature, photography or music can't help but be affected and influenced by the politics of the day. All aspects of our lives intertwine. Nothing is really isolated, but must be seen as part of the broader picture.

[Chuck Nessa]

I look at art as expressing the relationship of man with other men and with the cosmos.

Boy are you in touch with the 19th century!

[connoisseur series500]

I look at art as expressing the relationship of man with other men and with the cosmos.

Boy are you in touch with the 19th century!

I mean it in a broad way. Still hasn't changed as far as I can see.

[Christiern]

For those who do not want to mix politics and jazz, you can sign up to ignore the Political Forum or the DEEP OLIVE BRANCH TO CHRISTIERN thread.

• Weizen, that happens to be the most boring, nothin'-happenin' thread around, but, if one can't get enough of the never-ending, highly capitalized, substance-poor Pat-DEEP dialogues, hey--it's the genre's best.
  

Having said that, I think jazz and politics are too inter-twined to go separate ways.

[patricia]

Having said that, I think jazz and politics are too inter-twined to go separate ways.

That's all I'm saying. Life is not compartmentalized. Each segment makes up a part of the totality. To think otherwise is unrealistic.

[Christiern]

• Except for monkey finger painting and elephant trunk painting, I cannot thing of any art genre that could possibly be immune from at least occasionally becoming an outlet for political expression. Jazz is no exception.
  

[JSngry]

People tend to be who they really are, intentionally or not, so some music is political & some ain't. But since people tend to be who they really are, intentionally or not, some listeners are political & some ain't.

The combinations are nearly endless!

[Dr. Rat]

Since everybody seems to think the art/politics dichotomy is a false one (that is, that no matter what art is going to have some sort of political significance), why don't we rephrase the question a bit.

What do we think of art that (more or less) explicitly aims to encourage some social or political goal?

Is this a bad thing to try to do? Does it still work as art? Does it work as politics? Artsists, of course have their right to an opinion, and their right to express it, but is it a good idea to do so through their art? Or is it best to leave the political significance of art to be of the more or less accidental type?

One argument I've seen advanced by some folks is that in many cases art is too interesting a form to harness to the essentially uninsightful content political art tends to convey.

There are, of course, obvious counter-examples to this notion.

--eric

[7/4]

I'm more interested if it works as art.

[minew]

Personally, I'm just glad that he hasn't gotten going that "Republicans are racist; Jazz is predominantly a creation of African-Americans; therefore Republicans who like jazz are hypocrites."

That not-so-merry go round is reserved for Johnny. 

or Minew.

I have never made this argument. Though Republicans who are jazz fans are such an unusaual minority that they deserve their own moniker, like the Log Cabin Republicans have. Maybe "Woodshed Republicans."

I do think that politics has always been a part of jazz, particulary as politics relates to racism and civil rights. I find the confrontation of jazz with these issues to be inspiring: Waller's "Black and Blue", Holiday's rendition of "Strange Fruit", Amstrong's boycott of the "Goodwill Tour", Nina Simone's work, Mingus' "Fables of Faubus", Roach's "We Insist!", Rollins' "Freedom Now Suite", Brotzmann's "Fuck de Boere."

Not to pick at old scabs, but one the most offensive things about Burns' documentary was that, after devoting so much time to musicians' struggles against racism, he criticized the overtly political music of people like Roach and Shepp as a distracting, disruptive, wrong direction for jazz.

[Dr. Rat]

I do think that politics has always been a part of jazz, particulary as politics relates to racism and civil rights. I find the confrontation of jazz with these issues to be inspiring: Waller's "Black and Blue", Holiday's rendition of "Strange Fruit", Amstrong's boycott of the "Goodwill Tour", Nina Simone's work, Mingus' "Fables of Faubus", Roach's "We Insist!", Rollins' "Freedom Now Suite", Brotzmann's "Fuck de Boere."

Not to pick at old scabs, but one the most offensive things about Burns' documentary was that, after devoting so much time to musicians' struggles against racism, he criticized the overtly political music of people like Roach and Shepp as a distracting, disruptive, wrong direction for jazz.

I don't necessarily agree with "Burns's" view, but certainly, probably starting with "Strange Fruit," jazz started to go in a different direction as to how politics was to be integrated into the entire presentation. John Hammond didn't want to take the step with "Strange Fruit," (I think he thought the song was unacceptably maudlin and melodramatic, whatever its good intentions--criticisms some renditions of the song are definitely succeptible to). Burns seems on board for Stange Fruit, but then wants to hop off when later jazz folks want to a) break with the new deal liberal consensus; and b) present politcs more directly, in a far less poetcized/aestheticized way than even Strange Fruit did.

He's just drawing a line and saying "thus far and no farther," it seems to me. He might be wrong as to where he draws the line, but there's nothing contradictory or hypocritical about it.

--eric

[connoisseur series500]

Personally, I'm just glad that he hasn't gotten going that "Republicans are racist; Jazz is predominantly a creation of African-Americans; therefore Republicans who like jazz are hypocrites."

That not-so-merry go round is reserved for Johnny. 

or Minew.

I have never made this argument. Though Republicans who are jazz fans are such an unusaual minority that they deserve their own moniker, like the Log Cabin Republicans have. Maybe "Woodshed Republicans."

Sorry Minew. Did I use a smiley there?

[Christiern]

I don't necessarily agree with "Burns's" view, but certainly, probably starting with "Strange Fruit," jazz started to go in a different direction as to how politics was to be integrated into the entire presentation.

• "Strange Fruit" is probably the most widely known protest song in jazz, although "Black and Blue" is up there, too. However, neither song pioneered the genre. Listen to Bessie Smith's "Poor Man's Blues," for example, and there are many more blues whose lyrics have social significance.
  

[patricia]

Lyrics are the expression of the composer's view of whatever he/she is thinking when they're writing them. They are thoughts, put to music, whether they are about love, betrayal or life as it's being experienced. So, it stands to reason that the political and social climate of the time would be reflected in the lyrics of songs of an era. I don't know why this would be a surprise.

But, there are many who choose to ignore the message, whether it's conveyed by literature, art or music. Although I think that they are ripping the heart from the total work, I suppose that because the artform, whatever it is, can also be enjoyed, or not, on it's own merits, they miss a large part of it's significance.

Books, photographs and music are the most powerful vehicles of change, so are not just art. They are history in the making.

Edited January 26, 2004 by patricia

[Alexander]

For me, jazz *is* political, and always has been. Art *is* political by its very nature. Look at the Impressionists and the Modernists. Look at the Cubists and the Abstract Expressionists. Heck, look how sales of superhero comics go up during republican administrations! Anyone who imagines that art and politics reside in separate camps is fooling him or herself. Art is human expression. Politics is a human activity. Politics is inescapable.

[patricia]

For me, jazz *is* political, and always has been. Art *is* political by its very nature. Look at the Impressionists and the Modernists. Look at the Cubists and the Abstract Expressionists. Heck, look how sales of superhero comics go up during republican administrations! Anyone who imagines that art and politics reside in separate camps is fooling him or herself. Art is human expression. Politics is a human activity. Politics is inescapable.

Exactly. Thank you Alexander.

[maren]

Republicans who are jazz fans are such an unusual minority that they deserve their own moniker, like the Log Cabin Republicans have. Maybe "Woodshed Republicans."