ECM - the label

[JETman]

More people would like ECM releases if there were no other options available.

There are, but some of the labels mentioned are just trying to feed off of a ridiculous desire to return to the glory days. Guys like Teekens are just taking advantage of young up and coming American musicians in order to further his own cause. One label's credo "Straight ahead and in the pocket" became laughable amongst many older, more knowledgeable jazz fans I used to hang out with. The guy at Venus in Japan (the great assimilator of American culture) has young and old artists alike recording standards-filled albums. The list goes on and on.

[JSngry]

Most people just like music that sounds like what they think that "type" of music is supposed to sound like, be it "in the tradition" or "forward thinking".

The longer I live, the more I look around, the more it seems to me that "music appreciation" is by and large a Pavlovian reflex. We like what brings us the stimulus we enjoy, and don't like that which doesn't.

Damn near all "music fans" are essentially "pop fans". Give them something that doesn't present an esthetic that gives them the warm-fuzzies (even if for them a warm-fuzzy is cold and sharp), and they find all kinds of reasons not to like it.

Which, I guess, is ok, I mean, why should you like something you don't like, but arguments for inherent "superiority" of any music over another just fall flat with me these days. There's a story behind everything, ya' know, even the crassest and lamest bullshit, and stories, like shit, happen irregardless of their "merit". I'm to the point where those stories matter to me more than the "music", which, after all, is just another skill set, albeit it a potentially highly refined one in its application.

In other words, fly me to the moon, and let the little dog laugh at the spoon, who sooner or later will be back, with or without the dish.

[John Tapscott]

More people would like ECM releases if there were no other options available.

Guys like Teekens are just taking advantage of young up and coming American musicians in order to further his own cause.

I find this to be a strange statement in need of further explanation. So in your ideal world, all these young American musicians who record for Criss Cross (and the veterans, too) would be recording for ECM where they would not be taken advantage of for some producer's personal "cause?" I don't know anything about Teekens but it seems to me that he must allow the musicians quite a bit of freedom; after all there is a fairly high percentage of original material on many Criss Cross recordings. Did you ever consider that these musicians record for Criss Cross because they actually want to - that this really is their sound and their music and that they are well served by recording for this label? You make it sound as if recording for Criss Cross is some kind of slavery. I'm sure they ccould say "no". I'll bet they even get paid.

Let's take two musicians who record for Criss Cross - a veteran like Ralph Lalama and a relative newcomer like Adam Rogers. I'm not putting down ECM, just wondering how they would necessarily be better served by recording for ECM rather than Criss Cross or how their music would be different if they did?

[JSngry]

Did you ever consider that these musicians record for Criss Cross because they actually want to - that this really is their sound and their music...

Important point, that, and one tht I myself hve understood "intellectually" long before being able to actually accept it w/o some kind of reflexive "pushback", because their sound is not my sound, and I personally find that whole bag to not be going where I want to go. Not even, not usually.

But - there is great skill and no small sincerity involved in these musicians and their music. As much as they don't have to worry about me crashing their party, I should at least that much not be aggravated by them having that party. If at my party, we're running low on everything, including attendees, it's not their fault.

OTOH, it's a helluva lot easier to blame it on everybody who's at that other party, why, they wouldn't know a good party if it bit them in the ass! They should be at MY party, it's so much....better!

Or so I'd like to think. That, more than the possibility that maybe I'm an outlier in the world of humanity, and always will be. No, it's gotta be somebody's fault, ya' know? Like somebody's gotta be right, and since that somebody is me, then the other stuff, the other ways, the other people, they're wrong. That's so delightfully...Newtonian!

Largely but not wholly parallel universes of Pavlovian proclivities, I'll sign up for that, no problem. Make mine non-Newtonian!

[JETman]

Teekens flies to NY twice a year to record musicians who are more, shall we say, "vulnerable" to compliance. I've spoken to some people in the know who know that he has a strong say over what is recorded, and how he wants it to sound. That's his perogative, but I'm just sayin'. Manfred is not the only supposed dictator of the bunch. The difference is he tries to avoid same old, same old. And fwiw, you're not gonna see any overlap of artists recording for Criss Cross and ECM. (oh wait, I just thought of one --- Mark Turner recorded for Criss Cross when he was a wee babe).

Jim -- never said that music put out by ECM was/is superior. I'm saying that not liking the music is NOT because of the label it appears on. There seems to be an automatic bias there (which could be Pavlovian in nature, but I digress). Also saying, with regard to your Pavlovian theory, that it is much more rewarding (for me at least) to fight through a period of not getting an initial fix of "warm fuzzies" in order to possibly discover something that I might enjoy than to automatically and easily fall back into a comfort zone.

[JSngry]

Also saying, with regard to your Pavlovian theory, that it is much more rewarding (for me at least) to fight through a period of not getting an initial fix of "warm fuzzies" in order to possibly discover something that I might enjoy than to automatically and easily fall back into a comfort zone.

Ah, the old "like to dig deeper" reflex. Been known to have it myself.

Still a reflex, though, as is "I either get it or I don't, and that's that".

Some guys go for the easy chicks, some go for the challenge. I think it's all "wiring" in the end, the "character" element arising with how we handle our wiring in relation to that of others, not o much what you go for as it is what you do with it after you get it.

Definitely think that there is an ECM esthetic, part of which manifest itself in the "sound" of the recordings, but also in who the label chooses to record and how much/little "guidance" is needed in production. Don't think that's a bad thing, hell, it's smart if you ask me, a sound business practice that leads to brand identification and loyalty. Those are good things, since the label is ultimately a commercial enterprise and not a philanthropic one.

Also think that the "retro" labels have much the same thing going on and that it is also a good thing for them, and for the same reasons.

Not liking the "sound" of anything is perfectly valid, but equating sound quality of a recording with the quality of the music it represents is a sort of logistical synesthesia that is properly applied to some things (like pop music, where a "good record" and a "good song" are two totally different things, but in the end, not necessarily, not in terms of delivering on intent) but not to others (like evaluating the quality of an actual composition or performance, like some crappy-sounding Bird bootleg that is so freakin' brilliant that you can hear the music no matter what).

So yeah, reflexive dismissal of all things ECM does strike me as being a too holey to carry water, but a reflexive dislike based on the "sound", that seems fair enough, and if people don't get hit by the "challenged to dig deeper" reflex by it, even though it might well merit such, oh well. People are less prone to go into a room when they don't like the look of the door.

I'm like that with liver, myself, so I understand.

Edited May 15, 2012 by JSngry

[GA Russell]

As you know, I'm on ECM's mailing list. I receive nearly all of their jazz releases.

There are quite a few which leave me cold upon first listening, but I warm up to a number of them after a few months of listening, or after putting them aside for a few months. I find that for most ECM's, I need to be in just the right mood to appreciate what they're doing.

I have no knowledge of ECM's business practices, but I can say that the records always sound first class. Nothing about ECM seems to have been done half-ass. I've never heard an ECM which sounded like a payday jam session.

[paul secor]

I suppose I'm in the minority here, but I think the label is on an absolute roll the last few years particularly. To me, Lee Konitz - Live At Birdland and Miroslav Vituous - Remembering Weather Report are two instant classics, both records I have listened to dozens of times. Both titles are rigorous, if not superhumanly daring, and I can say the same about a lot of music the label puts out, from Tim Berne to Roscoe Mitchell to Marilynn Crispell to Tomasz Stanko to Paul Motian to Michael Formanek to Craig Taborn. John Abercrombie's Third Quartet album is also amazing. As for the more classic "ECM" type of stuff, I can take or leave it, but I do love John Surman's work. For whatever wispier stuff the label puts out, how can you ignore a roster like this? Let's also not forget the AEC, Old & New Dreams, Marion Brown, Circle, Jack DeJohnette, Hal Russell, Paul Bley, Evan Parker, Lester Bowie, Leo Smith, Julian Priester ... I have no issues with Eicher or the label as a whole.

I've bought ECM recordings by a number of these artists. I'm happy that ECM recorded them but, in general, I prefer the recordings they made for other labels.

[colinmce]

There's no denying you get a certain thing from an ECM record. Sometimes it works better than others, and some artists are served better by it than others. All I'm pushing against is the idea that the label is an easy listening outfit. I know many here aren't saying that, but the sentiment is out there.

[clifford_thornton]

Also, some of the earlier ECMs weren't supervised by Eicher - they were tapes that the artists had produced and were brought to him, deemed worth releasing, and there ya go. At least one of the early Bleys was supposed to be on ESP, the Just Music LP was a reissue of their self-produced album, the Music Improvisation Company material was already extant, and so forth.

[JSngry]

It's a sound that does not really "confront" the ears ("the next best thing to silence", remember). but again, that's about the recorded sound, not the music that is being presented with that sound.

"Easy on the ears" is not the same as "easy listening", which generally speaking means "easy on the mind". Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Chuck Nessa]

Sigh.

[GregK]

I suppose I'm in the minority here, but I think the label is on an absolute roll the last few years particularly. To me, Lee Konitz - Live At Birdland and Miroslav Vituous - Remembering Weather Report are two instant classics, both records I have listened to dozens of times. Both titles are rigorous, if not superhumanly daring, and I can say the same about a lot of music the label puts out, from Tim Berne to Roscoe Mitchell to Marilynn Crispell to Tomasz Stanko to Paul Motian to Michael Formanek to Craig Taborn. John Abercrombie's Third Quartet album is also amazing. As for the more classic "ECM" type of stuff, I can take or leave it, but I do love John Surman's work. For whatever wispier stuff the label puts out, how can you ignore a roster like this? Let's also not forget the AEC, Old & New Dreams, Marion Brown, Circle, Jack DeJohnette, Hal Russell, Paul Bley, Evan Parker, Lester Bowie, Leo Smith, Julian Priester ... I have no issues with Eicher or the label as a whole.

I agree with all of this.

[Aggie87]

As you know, I'm on ECM's mailing list. I receive nearly all of their jazz releases.

I'd like to do this - how can I get all of ECM's cds free, too?

[GA Russell]

As you know, I'm on ECM's mailing list. I receive nearly all of their jazz releases.

I'd like to do this - how can I get all of ECM's cds free, too?

Aggie, I got on their mailing list when I reviewed new releases at AAJ. It's been four years since I frequented AAJ so I am out of touch with their current situation; but it wouldn't hurt to go there and see if you can volunteer to review. Even if you don't get on the ECM list, you might get on someone else's list that would be just as valuable to us here.

[A Lark Ascending]

It's also worth remembering that a substantial part of the ECM catalogue is quite deliberately very different from American jazz. The 60s going into 70s were really when you moved from some marvellous jazz musicians playing as well as Americans in an American context to some marvellous musicians playing in a very different context to American musicians. That sense that if jazz in Europe was ever going to establish an independent voice, then it had to do so by working from some other base materials.

Notwithstanding the many excellent recordings of US musicians on ECM, I'd say the appeal of the label to some of us was that sense of exploring those other pathways.

[And just to be contrary, I like Criss Cross too].

Edited May 16, 2012 by A Lark Ascending

[JETman]

I have a ton of Criss Cross too, fwiw. But I've stopped being so obsessive about collecting them because it's all gotten a little too old. One of my faves on that label is Billy Drummond's (former Mr. Rosnes) "Dubai".

In case nobody's noticed, a large part of my argument is steeped in devil's advocacy. Just getting tired of people blaming the label for lack of musicality instead of the musicians themselves. I refuse to believe that sonics could completely mar otherwise marvelous performances. After all, people like us obsessively chase every last Bird performance or Miles bootleg whether it can be properly heard or not. I find it hypocritical, to say the least.

And then, there's the issue of my being vehemently opposed to bumbleheaded thinking that requires "fallback" to only old reliable sources for musical enjoyment. I'm not saying that I'm unique (especially in places like here), but I am extraordinarily passionate about music. It has played a HUGE role in my emotional contentment for almost all of my life. As a result, the "deeper search" that Jim refers to above is very important to me --- not in a superior intellectual sort of way, but more in a "I absolutely have to find ways to stay interested" sort of way. Such as it is, music is THAT important to me. I too am a big fan of all the old suspects and legendary record labels. But because of this desire to find something new and interesting, you'd usually find me listening to something like a Gerry Hemingway Hat Art release or a Jackie McLean Blue Note like "Destination Out", rather than a Hank Mobley Blue Note recording. Doesn't mean I don't like Hank. It just means that I get bored easily.

[A Lark Ascending]

I buy endless amounts of new music in order to feel again that warm fuzziness that I felt so often as a mid-teen exploring music for the first time. That's the only reason - I like music because it can make my spine tingle.

Doesn't happen quite so often (for obvious reasons); but one of the ways of increasing the chances is to keep trying new things.

However, I will admit to having decidedly furred arteries when it comes to anything involving machines pumping out regular beats very loudly.

[mjazzg]

However, I will admit to having decidedly furred arteries when it comes to anything involving machines pumping out regular beats very loudly.

not a lot of danger coming across too much of that on ECM despite last year's remix release (really rather good if overlong).

[king ubu]

btw, where's the poll here?

[David Ayers]

btw, where's the poll here?

here

[A Lark Ascending]

However, I will admit to having decidedly furred arteries when it comes to anything involving machines pumping out regular beats very loudly.

not a lot of danger coming across too much of that on ECM despite last year's remix release (really rather good if overlong).

It slips in occasionally with a few of the Norwegians.

[mjazzg]

However, I will admit to having decidedly furred arteries when it comes to anything involving machines pumping out regular beats very loudly.

not a lot of danger coming across too much of that on ECM despite last year's remix release (really rather good if overlong).

It slips in occasionally with a few of the Norwegians.

I don't know....those Norwegians? modern devils aren't they?

[A Lark Ascending]

However, I will admit to having decidedly furred arteries when it comes to anything involving machines pumping out regular beats very loudly.

not a lot of danger coming across too much of that on ECM despite last year's remix release (really rather good if overlong).

It slips in occasionally with a few of the Norwegians.

I don't know....those Norwegians? modern devils aren't they?

Perhaps they've found that beating yourself with twigs whilst naked in the snow in more pleasurable with a 1:1 beat. Or is that Finns?

[JETman]

Are you referring to Nik Bartsch's zen funk melange? If so, I believe he's Swiss.