ECM - the label

[mjazzg]

As noted elsewhere it seems that any discussion of individual titles on this label is sidelined and often obscured by a general debate about the merits of this label.So here's a forum to discuss the label and not the individual releases per se.

some regular debates seem to have been:

Manfred Eicher - benign presence or overly-influential producer?

The 'ECM sound' - ruins artists or offers them an alternative

It used to release vital music but now simply releases safe ear-candy

over to you....but remember it is only a record label

[7/4]

I thought Tim Bernes comments put this debate to sleep, but apparently not.

[mjazzg]

I thought Tim Bernes comments put this debate to sleep, but apparently not.

Yes, it would have been nice if they had but the Kuhn/Wisteria thread suggests otherwise

[paul secor]

It's probably clear by now where people stand. Musicians and listeners can have very diffrent agendas.

[Dan Gould]

I have to go check this Kuhn/Wisteria thread now.

As for me, I can say that early in my collecting days, I bought an ECM or two, not really sure what I was getting, I think I probably liked the austere nature photo on the cover. The music - whoever it was - didn't do much for me, I know that. Today I've got one or two Jarrett CDs that I can tolerate and that's it, I believe.

[JETman]

I don't care -- I only buy music released by Criss Cross, Sharp Nine (music in the pocket, baby!) and Venus.

[mjzee]

I think ECM has a "sound" that can affect the music. I noticed it on the Roscoe Mitchell "Nine To Get Ready" disc. It's a sheen, a bit of a distance from the music. In fact, I don't understand the argument that it could be otherwise. Haven't we long talked about the affect a producer has on the music, a Bob Weinstock vs an Alfred Lion? Haven't we discussed the sound difference each got from Rudy's studio? And I do think one can wonder how a particular ECM album might have sounded if produced on a different label.

From all this, it's a short step to discuss what one thinks of that "sound" and that "approach." Don't some people prefer Blue Notes to Prestiges of the same era, or vice versa? It's just something else to discuss, and one's input (if not too vitriolic) could be interesting to consider.

[jazzbo]

I don't really have a strong opinion on the label itself, even after all these years. Periodic purchases of albums based on the artists have led me to periodic purchases. That is, I rarely feel compelled to buy them, partly the sound and partly the material, and I don't know much of that to lay at the feet of the producer. I think if I were to buy releases of artists I am not that familiar with on the label, it might lead to a lot of purchases. Probably why I don't do so. . . I'm collecting far too much as it is.

[JSngry]

Yeah, thinking that the label releases quality music and not always liking the sound of the recordings of that music as the label releases it are not at all conflicting POVs, unless one hears that sound as actually being the music itself, or vice-versa.

[colinmce]

I suppose I'm in the minority here, but I think the label is on an absolute roll the last few years particularly. To me, Lee Konitz - Live At Birdland and Miroslav Vituous - Remembering Weather Report are two instant classics, both records I have listened to dozens of times. Both titles are rigorous, if not superhumanly daring, and I can say the same about a lot of music the label puts out, from Tim Berne to Roscoe Mitchell to Marilynn Crispell to Tomasz Stanko to Paul Motian to Michael Formanek to Craig Taborn. John Abercrombie's Third Quartet album is also amazing. As for the more classic "ECM" type of stuff, I can take or leave it, but I do love John Surman's work. For whatever wispier stuff the label puts out, how can you ignore a roster like this? Let's also not forget the AEC, Old & New Dreams, Marion Brown, Circle, Jack DeJohnette, Hal Russell, Paul Bley, Evan Parker, Lester Bowie, Leo Smith, Julian Priester ... I have no issues with Eicher or the label as a whole.

[John Tapscott]

I don't care -- I only buy music released by Criss Cross, Sharp Nine (music in the pocket, baby!) and Venus.

Hey, that's me...and you forgot Reservoir!

I'll admit I don't go out of my way to buy ECM dates, but I do have and enjoy most of the Jarrett trio dates. Plus there are some others I have and enjoy. Kenny Wheeler's Gnu High is a long-time favorite, plus Steve Kuhn's Mostly Coltrane is a fine date. Jarrett's Survivor's Suite also, plus some others I'm not thinking of at the moment.

[clifford_thornton]

I have a lot of their 70s output and love it. I feel that the Eicher sound seemed to come into play more in the 1980s (though I could be wrong). Some dates that, were they recorded ten years earlier (the Motian/Brackeen/Jenny-Clarke Trio, for example), might have a bit more of the punch I'm looking for as a listener. But the music contained within is still strong.

The ECM sound doesn't totally mar newer label releases from Paul Bley, Marilyn Crispell, Roscoe, and Evan Parker, but sometimes I yearn for more analog overdrive. That's just me. I'm glad they pay the musicians well and promote the hell out of them.

[clifford_thornton]

I'd also say that ECM is far from the only guilty label in terms of promoting an ethereal sterility - if they do indeed do that - I've noticed similarly-rendered recordings on Hat, Intakt, Clean Feed, and a host of other labels.

[jlhoots]

I suppose I'm in the minority here, but I think the label is on an absolute roll the last few years particularly. To me, Lee Konitz - Live At Birdland and Miroslav Vituous - Remembering Weather Report are two instant classics, both records I have listened to dozens of times. Both titles are rigorous, if not superhumanly daring, and I can say the same about a lot of music the label puts out, from Tim Berne to Roscoe Mitchell to Marilynn Crispell to Tomasz Stanko to Paul Motian to Michael Formanek to Craig Taborn. John Abercrombie's Third Quartet album is also amazing. As for the more classic "ECM" type of stuff, I can take or leave it, but I do love John Surman's work. For whatever wispier stuff the label puts out, how can you ignore a roster like this? Let's also not forget the AEC, Old & New Dreams, Marion Brown, Circle, Jack DeJohnette, Hal Russell, Paul Bley, Evan Parker, Lester Bowie, Leo Smith, Julian Priester ... I have no issues with Eicher or the label as a whole.

I lean more toward your POV than to the naysayer camp.

[JETman]

Hey, that's me...and you forgot Reservoir!

There are too many of you out there. While on the surface this may simply be a "live and let live" type of world where we each enjoy what we enjoy, this is really where the problem with jazz lies. Too many pining for the good old days of swing, bebop, hard bop, etc. Frankly, most of this stuff from those days has been or is available to us. Why do we need to have more of it which is not done quite as well as it was then?

Let's advance the music into new territories (and I'm not talking about jazz meets hip-hop) to try and gain a viable audience which can help move the music forward. If I were a newbie, and willing to do some research, I would infinitely prefer to seek out all the George Coleman that I could, rather than buy another cd where Eric Alexander (no insult intended -- he's technically brilliant) does the same thing differently.

Sound issues aside, this is what ECM has always tried to do. It has literally released hundreds of killer, groundbreaking albums over the years.

[JSngry]

Hey, that's me...and you forgot Reservoir!

There are too many of you out there.

What's the acceptable number, and who do we decide to take out in order to get there?

[JETman]

Hey, that's me...and you forgot Reservoir!

There are too many of you out there.

What's the acceptable number, and who do we decide to take out in order to get there?

That's a good question to which I have no answer. It's a conundrum!

If music's a real passion, each one of us will know the answer that is right for them. But, and this is a BIG but (no pun intended), if you choose to follow the older "new" path, you do NOT get to whine about jazz not being popular or jazz not selling well, yada yada yada.

[mjzee]

My main issue with the ECM approach...I don't have a word for it, so I'll give an example. Marc Johnson released a great little album on Verve back in 1998 called The Sound of Summer Running. I think it's the only album he did for Verve. The group had both Pat Metheny and Bill Frisell in it, and the style is in the vein of Frisell's "Americana" work: very tuneful, happy and upbeat. Maybe these were the producer's (Rich Seidel) marching orders, but it helped make for a great record. Then I bought a disc Johnson made for ECM called Shades of Jade. It was everything the Verve disc wasn't: the tunes were amorphous, vague, kinda going nowhere...it was hard to tell why a tune ended when it did, or even what the tune was. It's very possible that Eicher's hands-off approach made the date worse, and that maybe Johnson could've used a Rich Seidel cracking the whip. Just my two cents.

[John Tapscott]

Hey, that's me...and you forgot Reservoir!

There are too many of you out there.

Perhaps not as many of us as you might think. I can't speak for all these labels, but I know that for at least two of them, sales are hardly at a rip-roaring pace, rather anemic, in fact. I'll bet the average ECM release sells at least as many copies as releases from any of these labels. Granted that ECM has strong marketing and distribution.

Edited May 15, 2012 by John Tapscott

[JETman]

My main issue with the ECM approach...I don't have a word for it, so I'll give an example. Marc Johnson released a great little album on Verve back in 1998 called The Sound of Summer Running. I think it's the only album he did for Verve. The group had both Pat Metheny and Bill Frisell in it, and the style is in the vein of Frisell's "Americana" work: very tuneful, happy and upbeat. Maybe these were the producer's (Rich Seidel) marching orders, but it helped make for a great record. Then I bought a disc Johnson made for ECM called Shades of Jade. It was everything the Verve disc wasn't: the tunes were amorphous, vague, kinda going nowhere...it was hard to tell why a tune ended when it did, or even what the tune was. It's very possible that Eicher's hands-off approach made the date worse, and that maybe Johnson could've used a Rich Seidel cracking the whip. Just my two cents.

Why do you equate different music to different label? Did you ever consider that it could have been that fact that the musician just happened to be at a different stage of his career?

Sound of Summer Running - 1997

Shades of Jade - 2005

Is it really so difficult to believe that 8 years could make a huge difference? Or do you expect Johnson to always sound the same way he did with Blevans in the 70s?

The ability to reason this stuff out is NOT rocket science!!!

Hey, that's me...and you forgot Reservoir!

There are too many of you out there.

Perhaps not as many of us as you might think. I can't speak for all these labels, but I know that for at least two of them, sales are hardly at a rip-roaring pace, rather anemic, in fact. I'll bet the average ECM release sells at least as many copies as releases from any of these labels. Granted that ECM has stong marketing and distribution.

ECM is NOT as big as you think. It's like a 3 or 4 person operation from what I'm told.

[JSngry]

More people would like ECM releases if there were no other options available.

[A Lark Ascending]

ECM was one of the reasons I started listening to jazz (mid-70s). Jarrett, Towner, Weber etc took me to some improvised music that didn't sound like, what to my ears at the time, was an old fashioned jazz sound. I was looking for music that was largely acoustic and rhythmically fleet of foot as I retreated from rock, but was still hearing most jazz as I heard most Baroque music.

I have no difficulty understanding why the sound, approach etc might not appeal to many, especially those for whom the blues/swing roots of jazz are paramount. But if you grew into music from the 70s onwards - especially in Europe - those features don't necessarily hold such a sway.

They do some things better than others. I'm still not convinced people like Enrico Rava or Stefano Bollani are best served by ECM (though I've enjoyed much on the discs there).

But for me Eicher and ECM are heroes - my shelves are stacked with their recordings and I doubt if a week goes by without an ECM being played. And they get played because I like the individual records, not because I'm seeking a dose of 'the ECM Sound'.

Edited May 15, 2012 by A Lark Ascending

[JSngry]

Some things go better with coke. ECM isn't one of them.

Opiates, otoh, ahhh...there's a pleasurable mix.

[A Lark Ascending]

Highland spring water works best. Especially Norwegian highland spring water.

Try listening to 'Conference of the Birds' after a couple of bottles.

[JSngry]

Been there, done that (with a wide variety of bottles", still like it "as is".

That's a damn good record, no matter what you have or haven't consumed.